Why are some armies "finesse" whereas others are just bad??

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**Son_Of _Deddog**

Look at Eldar. Hard hitting, fast, fragile, unforgiving. They are hard to play and get right...they are a "finesse" army. Now look at Tau. Good shooting, poor CC..hard to play and get right-but somehow these are "bad" as opposed to "finesse"

Personally, I think that all armies need finesse. It's just that some need more finesse than others.....

What do you think??

**Vaktathi**

Tau are an army designed to basically shoot the piss out of an opponent at range, they aren't very subtle, but most other armies can outshoot them, even ones not intended to be shooty, hence why they are "bad".

Eldar are an army that has many more facets and avenues of attack, and in all honesty are typically more resilient. Eldar honestly aren't all that fragile, between Fortune, Energy Fields, Holofields, some 3+sv units and AV12 Fast Skimmers.

**Dark Apostle 666**

Despite what people say, even orks need some tactical nous, a friend of mine played them by hiding in cover and sending small portions towards my gunline (I.G) ON FOOT.
you can imagine how that ended up, especially when my flamer vets got stuck in.

**Maelstrom808**

Do you have to micro-manage almost every aspect of the army and/or utilize complex synergy? If in doing so, do you have a fair shot at beating most any other army you come up against assuming skill levels are equal? If you said yes to both, you are playing a finesse army.

**svendrex**

Let us look at 3 army books as an example.

Space Wolves

Dark Eldar

Tau

Space Wolves:

They have cheap MEQ units that can shoot above average (1 special at 5, 2 at 10 plus bolters) and have great combat potential (2 CCW, Counter Attack, Wolf Standards).

Combine that with good long range firepower, and hard assault units (long fangs, and thunder wolves).

They are an army that is easy to good with. (rush forward, shoot stuff up, Win assaults when the enemy charges you).
Like any army, to do great with them requires more skill. (target priority, baiting traps, ect...)

Dark Eldar

they are a mostly fragile force with some long range fire, (though only at 36"

and either shooting or assault power. They have a LOT of speed.

This is an easy army to poorly with. If your units are out of place, not in cover, or over exposed to the enemy, they will be gone fast.
Also, most of your units are only good at one thing. Wyches need to hide from shooting. Warriors need to avoid assaults.

They have the potential to do well however. They have a very high damage capability, and you can use their speed to gang up on one part of the enemy force, beat them up, them move on.

Tau

You have a lot of long range firepower, some interesting mobility, and limited close combat options.

The issue is that most of their units are priced for a different edition.

JSJ with suits was easier in 4th edition when there was no TLOS. With TLOS it is harder to hide the suits from return fire.

Also, there is a lot more S8 AP3 firepower in this edition. (see long fangs). There are more ID weapons going against the suits, making them cost more than they should for how durable they are.

Tau have very expensive transports as well. they have a decent statline, but they are too many points. This limits your mobility and your ability to avoid assaults.

Also, they have very poor troop choices compared to most of the 5th edition codexes.

In the end, they are a hard army to play correctly, and even if you play perfect, you can still be beaten.

Summary

Space Wolves (Easy)
Low skill => Decent results
High Skill => Awsome results

Dark Eldar (finesse)
Low Skill => Poor results
High Skill => awesome results

Tau (bad)
Low Skill => Poor results
High Skill => Decent results

**purplefood**

That is a good explaination...

**mcyeatman**

svendrex wrote:Let us look at 3 army books as an example.

Space Wolves

Dark Eldar

Tau

Space Wolves:

They have cheap MEQ units that can shoot above average (1 special at 5, 2 at 10 plus bolters) and have great combat potential (2 CCW, Counter Attack, Wolf Standards).

Combine that with good long range firepower, and hard assault units (long fangs, and thunder wolves).

They are an army that is easy to good with. (rush forward, shoot stuff up, Win assaults when the enemy charges you).
Like any army, to do great with them requires more skill. (target priority, baiting traps, ect...)

Dark Eldar

they are a mostly fragile force with some long range fire, (though only at 36" and either shooting or assault power. They have a LOT of speed.

This is an easy army to poorly with. If your units are out of place, not in cover, or over exposed to the enemy, they will be gone fast.
Also, most of your units are only good at one thing. Wyches need to hide from shooting. Warriors need to avoid assaults.

They have the potential to do well however. They have a very high damage capability, and you can use their speed to gang up on one part of the enemy force, beat them up, them move on.

Tau

You have a lot of long range firepower, some interesting mobility, and limited close combat options.

The issue is that most of their units are priced for a different edition.

JSJ with suits was easier in 4th edition when there was no TLOS. With TLOS it is harder to hide the suits from return fire.

Also, there is a lot more S8 AP3 firepower in this edition. (see long fangs). There are more ID weapons going against the suits, making them cost more than they should for how durable they are.

Tau have very expensive transports as well. they have a decent statline, but they are too many points. This limits your mobility and your ability to avoid assaults.

Also, they have very poor troop choices compared to most of the 5th edition codexes.

In the end, they are a hard army to play correctly, and even if you play perfect, you can still be beaten.

Summary

Space Wolves (Easy)
Low skill => Decent results
High Skill => Awsome results

Dark Eldar (finesse)
Low Skill => Poor results
High Skill => awesome results

Tau (bad)
Low Skill => Poor results
High Skill => Decent results

+1

**Just Dave**

I second what Svendrex said and honestly, I think it's good that not all armies require a lot of finesse otherwise 40K could be a very unwelcoming game. I dislike that it's my beloved SW's that are the easiest, but still, I think it's good that there are some armies easier to use than others.
Similarly, finesse isn't expected too much from some armies, such as some Space Marines, Orks and some Tyranids etc.

Like most things in life, balance is what's needed/a mix IMHO.

Personally however, I'd prefer each army was more like their fluff and unique from one another, such as Space Marines more likely to get 1st/initiative, Tau more capable at falling back, Eldar faster etc.

**mcyeatman**

Just Dave wrote:Personally however, I'd prefer each army was more like their fluff and unique from one another, such as Space Marines more likely to get 1st/initiative, Tau more capable at falling back, Eldar faster etc.

Amen brother. Unfortunately the SM codex(s) are the biggest culprits of violating fluff tactics.

**Just Dave**

mcyeatman wrote:
Just Dave wrote:Personally however, I'd prefer each army was more like their fluff and unique from one another, such as Space Marines more likely to get 1st/initiative, Tau more capable at falling back, Eldar faster etc.

Amen brother. Unfortunately the SM codex(s) are the biggest culprits of violating fluff tactics.

I beg to differ, at the heart of it, they're like their fluff, however options leaves opportunity for abuse...

Anyways, this isn't the place to discuss it...

**Samus_aran115**

CSM are not a finesse army

We throw Plague Marines at you until you die, and blast all of your crap off the board with our uber Shooty units, and then deep strike our flying T6 monsters into whatever's left over.

DE are definitely a finesse army. Play it cool, and keep your ravagers in the back, behind your raiders, and pick apart the opponent's army, then finish them off with your troops. I rarely ever disembark transports until T4-5

**Son_Of _Deddog**

Could it not be argued that there is essentially no difference between the terms "finesse army" and "bad army", as both really refer to the level of skill needed to make the army perform? I would suggest that no army is inherantly "bad", but there are some that need more skill to play than others.

**purplefood**

A finesse army is an army that although difficult to master, is capable of giving Great results.
A bad army is one that is difficult to master and still doesn't give great results.

**TMonkeyGuru**

purplefood wrote:A finesse army is an army that although difficult to master, is capable of giving Great results.
A bad army is one that is difficult to master and still doesn't give great results.

Totally agree with you, I`ve played Tau for little more than 2 years and still got way more kicks on the rear than victories, the only army i can play against and dont suffer from the start is the IG since i just use the 9 xv88 in cover cheese and some deep strike fireknifes but all other armys are way too hard to beat (not saying IG sucks, just saying Tau railguns are designed to make things go bum!).

Just 5 words "Taus need some GW love"

**Zakiriel**

The units are priced for an older edition of the game thing makes me think they really ought to wait on a next edition until they have ALL the codexies for that edition of the game ready to be released at the same time. Then they can put out new models and the data sheets for them as they go but have the core of the game edition and the army books on the same sheet of music.