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I seem to have lost my place where it says that the entire model must move onto the board when outflanking. Which would mean that the vendetta cannot simply move 6" to fire all its weapons. I thought I recalled reading that the model cannot overhang the board edge. Can someone point me in the right direction.

It's in the rulebook FAQ.

that is true about the Vendetta when enter the game from your board edge or the short board edge, it can't shoot any of its weapon and has to move whatever inches to come. Please dont listern to the newly rule on "Skull of Throne" it completely wrong.

It's on page 6 of the GW 40K rulebook FAQ v 1.2.

"Q: What happens when a unit arrives from reserves but is
unable to completely move onto the board? (p94)
A: The unit is destroyed and removed from play."

So the Vendetta or Valkyrie will have to move fully (using Cruising Speed or going Flat Out) onto the table or be removed from play. If it moves 12" or less it can still shoot one weapon and any defensive weapons (multiple rocket pods are S4) since it is a Fast vehicle.

Ah nice question and nice answer havent ever thought about it but seems like we were playing it wrong. Great point thank you guys.

mrblacksunshine - incorrect; as a fast vehicle it CAN still fire, if it moves up to 12"

Fast vehicles fire everything at combat speed (6). At cruising speed (12) it can use only one weapon. So one shot for you.

Kubik wrote: Fast vehicles fire everything at combat speed (6). At cruising speed (12) it can use only one weapon. So one shot for you.

One weapon, and all defensive weapons.

1(total) shot for Vendettas(unless you stupidly take Hellfury missiles).

3 multilaser Shots, and 2 Rocket pod blasts for the Valkyrie(or the 3 multilasers, or one of the 2 Hellstrikes if you were to leave them on, or Either of the Heavy bolters if you took them)

I use my bird to outflank a plasma-vet squad; so I always take a Valk with Rocket pods: move on table and Fire 3 S6, and 2 S4 large blasts.

I think the vendetta/valkyrie is an interesting case as it is one of the few times where the actual model is significantly bigger than the base it's on.

The way my local gaming circle plays it, we consider that if the whole base is on the table, the whole model is on the table. Otherwise, by the same logic, if some part of a smaller model (eg. a carnifex tail) were overhanging the edge of the board, it would not count as being on the table either.

At least, that's how I see it.

Wave Serpents, Falcons and other skimmers are significantly bigger. However htey are also much closer to the ground, whcih seems to make it mroe obvious to people just how wrong it is to attempt to have models handing over the edge...

Your way of seeing it is explicitly against the rules. For Skimmers the HULL must be on the table; the base is irrelevant.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Wave Serpents, Falcons and other skimmers are significantly bigger. However htey are also much closer to the ground, whcih seems to make it mroe obvious to people just how wrong it is to attempt to have models handing over the edge...

Your way of seeing it is explicitly against the rules. For Skimmers the HULL must be on the table; the base is irrelevant.

Except it actually makes reference to measuring anything from the valk/vendetta's base in the IG FAQ. Which leads me to believe it is allowed to hang over the edge. Otherwise it cant get to some parts of the board because it would hang over the head. With your alls same ruling if my tail fin was over difficult terrain i would have to test for difficult terrain. Its the same concept.

With your ruling my opponent could place his objective in a capture and hold game in the corner and I would be unable to contest with the valk/vendetta. lol

Tomb King wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:Wave Serpents, Falcons and other skimmers are significantly bigger. However htey are also much closer to the ground, whcih seems to make it mroe obvious to people just how wrong it is to attempt to have models handing over the edge...

Your way of seeing it is explicitly against the rules. For Skimmers the HULL must be on the table; the base is irrelevant.

Except it actually makes reference to measuring anything from the valk/vendetta's base in the IG FAQ. Which leads me to believe it is allowed to hang over the edge. Otherwise it cant get to some parts of the board because it would hang over the head. With your alls same ruling if my tail fin was over difficult terrain i would have to test for difficult terrain. Its the same concept.

With your ruling my opponent could place his objective in a capture and hold game in the corner and I would be unable to contest with the valk/vendetta. lol

Except it doesn't make references to measuring anything apart from (dis)embark and objectives from the base in the FAQ. So you stick with the rules for vehicles which are measure to/from the hull and completely ignore the base outside of assaults.

So there are three things you use the base for: 1. Objectives 2: (Dis)Embarking 3: Assaults.
Movement is not one of these three things so you ignore the base.

So if my tail fin hangs over difficult terrain will i have to test for difficult terrain than?

It is incredibly stupid if they cant hang over the edge at all it affectively cuts off a significant part of the board as the wingspan and length of the valk almost guarantee's me staying 5" away from the edge of the board at any one time. That is a nice objective in the corner. Unfortunately I cant contest it with this valk because the edge of the board is defending it?

Strictly speaking, yes you would have to test for difficult terrain with the wing hanging over it. Although it could be argued that given the wing didn't make contact with the terrain it didn't enter it and so doesn't have to test. Essentially that the hull of the model and the piece of terrain occupy a specific 3d space each, and if they don't overlap the model can be said to not have entered the terrain.

TK - no, its called "you have a really, really undercosted models that hasa couple of drawbacks"

Just follow the rules and accept the limitations. Yes, if your tail is over difficult terrain, you are "in" the terrain and must test. Yes, if an objective is far in the corner, you may not be able to contest - same as nob bikers cannot claim objectives in buildings.

Its the rules. Deal with it.

The difference between the Valkyrie having bits hanging over their base and an elaborately modeled guardsman or tyranid is that infantry models occupy the space of the base. Vehicles occupy their real space with the base(if any is there') existing for skimmers in assaults/embarking/disembarking.

-cgmckenzie

CGM - not entirely true. The base for SR and Valkyries is used for embarking / disembarking and claiming objectives because they have an exception to the normal rules.

But you can have those little scarab beetle necron things hide under monoliths/other skimmers that overhang their bases as long as they are friendly, right?

-cgmckenzie

As long as they move under there themselves.

In fact as long as you maintain 1" between base and skimmer unfriendlies can also make it underneath.

black-rabbit wrote:The way my local gaming circle plays it, we consider that if the whole base is on the table, the whole model is on the table.

Same here, it's the only thing that makes sense.

Of course, now someone will claim that since my Vendettas don't have wings so they look more like helicopters, that I'm modelling for advantage.

Wel technically you are - youve made it easier to get all 3 lascannons on target, as well as substantially reducing the size of the model, making it easier to position and get cover.

Nos, I think that you can have the monolith stop over the scarabs as long as its base isn't crushing them. The Rule about not being able to stop on top of friendly models is for the being on the table, not the hull hanging over scarabs.

'On top' means 'on the top' or touching the roof/head/back of whatever it is. 'Above' is simply occupying any space higher than the model that obscures the view of it while looking straight down(tried really hard to avoid 'above' in the definition).

But anywho, that is drastically off topic. Skimmers have to be completely on the table, not just their bases. You measure distances to the model itself, so if part of the model is off(that isn't decorative like banners) than the entire model is off.

-cgmckenzie

I have never seen anyone argue that my wings or fins hanging over something cause terrain test or that it is illegally placed. My gaming group ruled that if the base was on then the model is on.

I think you all are basing your analysis on this faq below:

Q: What happens when a unit arrives from reserves but is
unable to completely move onto the board? (p94)
A: The unit is destroyed and removed from play.

That comes in to play if you have a vehicle move on into DT and it immobilizes itself before coming on fully.

The vendetta is able to completely move onto the board. I can legally place the model and it sits up right. As for vendetta's taking dangerous terrain if the tail fin is resting above DT that is hularious and i would never do it. Fortunately those rocks down there are not tall enough to hit my vendetta, even if it did land.

I think taking a dangerous terrain test for the models like Vendetta is a bit odd, but the entire thing MUST come on the board at once. I would tell an opponent to take a dangerous terrain test unless the base ended up in terrain but I will be a stickler on the entire model getting on the board.

RAW, it must take a terrain test when applicable and get on the board entirely. The base is only used for contesting obj, embarking/disembarking, and assaulting. All other distances are measure to the model, so it occupies the area below it for purposes of terrain but other models can pass through the area it 'occupies'.

That explanation got a lot more complicated than I thought it would.

-cgmckenzie

Tomb King wrote:I have never seen anyone argue that my wings or fins hanging over something cause terrain test or that it is illegally placed. My gaming group ruled that if the base was on then the model is on.

Which is a houserule - and is fine.

But it IS A HOUSERULE.

Tomb King wrote:I think you all are basing your analysis on this faq below:

Q: What happens when a unit arrives from reserves but is
unable to completely move onto the board? (p94)
A: The unit is destroyed and removed from play.

That comes in to play if you have a vehicle move on into DT and it immobilizes itself before coming on fully.

The vendetta is able to completely move onto the board. I can legally place the model and it sits up right. As for vendetta's taking dangerous terrain if the tail fin is resting above DT that is hularious and i would never do it. Fortunately those rocks down there are not tall enough to hit my vendetta, even if it did land.

No, we're basing it on the rule that you measure to VEHICLES by measuring to the hull, and the vendetta / SR exceptions do NOT cover general measurement. So, if I can measure to a part of your model that is not within the 6x4 playing area, then that vehicle is NOT on the table. This means it must either move so it is on the table, or, if coming on from reserves, it is destroyed.

Sorry if this makes your undercosted, overpowered unit a *tiny* bit less OP, but the rules are the rules. Would you next ask to have a smaller base, because its unfair that your Valk is so high up? Theyre logically consistent - you want a rules change to benefit your model, just because your model has some drawbacks.

As for the monolith - a skimmer may not finish on top of another unit. After having moved the skimmer, If you look from above, and cannot see the unit, then youre movement there3 was illegal. No exceptions.

On top of for skimmers means you can't park its base physically on a tank/infantry platoon. Above has a different definition than on top.

On top implies physical contact with the top of the bottom object while above merely means being in the airspace higher than the bottom object but overlapping when viewed from an orbiting ship/plane/ratling shot into the stratosphere.

To put it another way: a plane flying above your house is different than a plane on top of your house.

-cgmckenzie

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Tomb King wrote:I have never seen anyone argue that my wings or fins hanging over something cause terrain test or that it is illegally placed. My gaming group ruled that if the base was on then the model is on.

Which is a houserule - and is fine.

But it IS A HOUSERULE.

Tomb King wrote:I think you all are basing your analysis on this faq below:

Q: What happens when a unit arrives from reserves but is
unable to completely move onto the board? (p94)
A: The unit is destroyed and removed from play.

That comes in to play if you have a vehicle move on into DT and it immobilizes itself before coming on fully.

The vendetta is able to completely move onto the board. I can legally place the model and it sits up right. As for vendetta's taking dangerous terrain if the tail fin is resting above DT that is hularious and i would never do it. Fortunately those rocks down there are not tall enough to hit my vendetta, even if it did land.

No, we're basing it on the rule that you measure to VEHICLES by measuring to the hull, and the vendetta / SR exceptions do NOT cover general measurement. So, if I can measure to a part of your model that is not within the 6x4 playing area, then that vehicle is NOT on the table. This means it must either move so it is on the table, or, if coming on from reserves, it is destroyed.

Sorry if this makes your undercosted, overpowered unit a *tiny* bit less OP, but the rules are the rules. Would you next ask to have a smaller base, because its unfair that your Valk is so high up? Theyre logically consistent - you want a rules change to benefit your model, just because your model has some drawbacks.

As for the monolith - a skimmer may not finish on top of another unit. After having moved the skimmer, If you look from above, and cannot see the unit, then youre movement there3 was illegal. No exceptions.

lol what about the dangerous terrain, raw i would have to test for terrain if my rear fin or part of one of my wings was over any sort of difficult terrain. You myswell give this to the tyranids as you all are substantially nerfing the model. The Valk/Vendetta is around 11" long and 10" wide. If you rule it your way then these models would be unable to deploy along with the rest of the army as models can not overlap. This means 3 vendetta's would take up roughly 330 Square inchs. Around 38% of your deployment zone in a pitched battle or almost 45% in spearhead. For 3 vehicles! That is assuming you place them right next to eachother or with gaps for other vehicles to fit in. With the vendetta unable to move within 4" of any side of the table it effectively stops them from moving in around 27.7% of the board, not including the various terrain. Atleast 25% of the board gets terrain, that means you have to avoid 52.7% of the board when your models take up about 9.5% of that board. Sounds to me like you all are trying to win outside of the game rather then beating the model.

The rule about it taking the terrain test is silly but such is life. You can't hang over the edge of the board because there is nothing out there and anything beyond the edge doesn't exist. The base of the model only shows where the assault point is, where people disembark, and where it is for contesting OBJ.

Nos is right in most of his stuff except for the overhanging skimmer not being allowed above models. If you want to move the Vendetta to be surrounded by an infantry platoon all in base contact, go for it. As long as the base doesn't land on top of another model, you are fine.

-cgmckenzie

Models would never be allowed to embark or disembark because they would have to go under the model to get to the base.

True fact. That's why the overhanging skimmers in relation to other models only applies to bases. Don't land you valkyrie on top of a tank and charge me. Actually, that might be cool...

-cgmckenzie