Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

There is a problem with that theory, however: namely, everything else we know about the post-heresy era. Between the setting of Savage Weapons and M41 the Ultramarines have done exactly nothing (direct rule of Ultramar aside) to validate the Lion's accusatory musings. This despite the perfect opportunity: Guilliman basically ruled in the period leading up to the Second Founding -- Dorn was mentally shattered, the Lion was missing (as far as we know), and the others were either traitors, not interested in taking on the burden, or already dead. But he did not remain in that authority past the immediate crisis. (Let's not forget, there was not necessarily a vacancy: we don't know exactly what the Golden Throne implies about the Emperor.) Furthermore, the Codex Astartes does not square with the Lion's opinion. If you were power hungry and in a position of numerical superiority over all rivals, why would you voluntarily split your forces? Strikes me as pandering to the same old Ultra-hate. No surprise coming from ADB. He already gave us a taste of this when he had the Aurelian punch Guilliman in the face.

In order:

- Guilliman's character is established as practical and efficient; if the Lion needs urgent communications sugar-coated then it's no wonder his boys wear dresses

- Codex Astartes has prevented another Horus Heresy for 10,000 years (imagine if a man like Lugft Huron controlled a legion rather than a chapter); if you think about the crisis, Dorn was teetering on the edge of corruption and it was he rather than Guilliman who threatened a second Heresy

- math time: let's say I have a hundred thousand guys and you have ten thousand; I insist we split our forces into groups of one thousand; so now we each have one thousand; I don't see how this puts you at a disadvantage but I clearly see how this disadvantages me

- as noted above Codex Astartes was objectively in the best interests of the Imperium; the Lion's ignorance of the problems inherent to his own Legion much less the Legion-level of organization more generally is a testament against his alleged brilliance

- true, Lorgar came across as a brat; even so, Guilliman got punched in the face and I call that fanservice (haterservice?) -- imagine a novel in which Mat Ward got punched in the face; same thing


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@Hulksmash: Sanguinius is another Primarch touched by Chaos (more literally than the Lion; approaching the level of Magnus) and he is the paragon of filial love, whereas the Lion's reputation has always been shadowy.

The fluff you're thinking of (Guilliman's poisoned neck wound from Daemon-Fulgrim slowly healing) is in McNeill's first Ultra-novel but I don't know if it's original to McNeill.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BaronIveagh wrote:Guilliman sits in stasis until the right moment, and instantly has a force to rival anything in the universe when he awakes.

But this is not the case -- although almost all Chapters descend from the Ultras and revere Guilliman as an ancestor, they do not (seem to) have any formal relationship among them that would instantly "re-legion-ize" the Ultramarines. This conspiracy theory is one of the main pillars of Ultra-hate mythology.

@Kanluwen:

Let's say you have a hundred thousand guys and I have ten thousand. You insist that we split our forces into groups of one thousand. What guarantee do I have that you're actually going to follow through with it?

If the UM splitting is non-effective, then neither is the splitting of the others. In effect, I still have my hundred thousand and you still have ten thousand. In other words, you're no better off and I'm no worse off. But this is counter-factual nonsense. We know that the Ultras did actually split up and that there was no conspiracy. The "what-if" game here is just more Ultra-hate (the older flavor or Ward-hate).

- Luther was supposed to be the closest person to Jonson: a mentor, a brother, a father -- that's why his betrayal means so much; and yet the question must arise -- why didn't the Lion see it coming? Also, you're right, he miscalculated with regard to the perception of his own Marines (viewing his commands as insults)? And yet he casts aspersions Guilliman's way . . .

- "Fanservice" has a technical meaning that doesn't exactly apply here (since it involves nudity) but I am using the term to highlight exactly what you mentioned: punching Guilliman in the face was gratuitous. It was not a necessary plot device to tell us something about Lorgar that we couldn't have been revealed in better ways. (Please distinguish this from me saying it made no sense, which is no part of the definition of fanservice.)

@Hulksmash:

- Only Dorn made such a stink that violence erupted. From what we currently know, some of the others were skeptical but only Dorn was ready to fight.

- All the instances you mention have been well-established milestones in the backgrounds of those Primarchs. Punching Guilliuman in the face, by contrast, is a throw-away incident that we'd never heard of before and will probably not matter in the future. I say probably because Guilliman doesn't seem the type to let something like that fester into a grudge but Lorgar will remember it and I'd bet Kor Phaeron will bring it up at Ultramar or Calth. Again: imagine a novel where Mat Ward got punched in the face -- that's the same principle.

- About Sanguinius: you're kidding,right? Yeah, he wasn't alone on Baal, but Baal is certainly not any better than Caliban and Sanguinus just had a tribe not an army to back him up. Furthermore, Sanguinius's mutation was indeed the result of Chaos. He was also a psyker beyond the skill of most other primarchs, especially regarding his ability to look into the future. I'd say Sanguinius was also resisting Chaos "from day 1" -- although this likely true of all the Primarchs is some way or another as Chaos was almost certainly a key part of their creation and was most assuredly mixed up with getting them lost. The Lion is hardly alone in being tested by Chaos. What makes him interesting is that he did not either entirely resist or give into corruption -- or so it is widely thought.

@Kanluwen

- I just don't see how anyone could look at the Codex Astartes and see Guilliman trying to bilk them and not at the same time bilking himself. It's nonsense.

- Great point about the DA being on-board with the Codex when the time came, however. That makes perfect sense, too. The DA knew first hand by that point how unwieldy and dangerous a legion-sized organization could be. This is something I am really excited about . . . but it's a long way off til BL authors sink their teeth into this, I'd guess.

- I really disagree about the "Word Bearer manufacturing the Heresy." That's giving Lorgar way, way too much credit. In fact, more credit goes to Erebus than Lorgar. In any case, Lorgar is ironically a sideshow everywhere but in First Heretic. The Ruinous Powers are interested in Horus, not Lorgar.

- Calth cannot be "fanservice" because it is a well-established element of the history of the Heresy. You're really over-extending you argument into absurdity. The punch is a throw-away nothing. There are better ways to show Lorgar is a brat, which ADB eventually gets down to. But while he had Lorgar and Guilliman on the same planet, ADB could not seem to resist mussing Guilliman's dignity. It's not really important to the story at hand, or the characters, or the overarching plot. Sure it has meaning but having it stand in for 'the point of the whole Heresy' is absurd. And for the record, fanservice is not necessarily 'inappropriate for the situation.'

- I wasn't implying that Jonson grew up with an army at his beck and call, just trying to say that Sanguinius didn't grow up with one, either.

- Yes, the psyker bit has been fully established. In 40k, there's no such thing as "magic visions" outside of Chaos/the Warp/psychic powers (this is all one category). Sanguinius foresaw in a vision the coming of the Emperor and met him on bended knee. Contrast to Konrad.

- There is no evidence that Jonson knew what Chaos was before any of the other loyalist primarchs. As far as he was concerned, he was just making Caliban better for the people of Caliban.

The lead-up to the Second Founding, the epilogue to the HH, is an era that we know a lot (comparatively) about. For example:

- Guilliman held the Imperium together during the Scouring and beyond (as well as doing most of the Scouring)
- Guilliman promulgated Codex Astartes
- a shattered Dorn resisted this but eventually gave in when he saw that his actions would bring about another heresy
- Guilliman retreated from the enormous authority he was wielding to become *just* the Chapter Master of the Ultramarines

None of this squares with the Lion's cynicism. Kanluwen points out that the Lion couldn't have known what hadn't happened yet. Okay. But here's what it does demonstrate: With the benefit of 'hindisght,' we know about Guilliman's character and we have no reason to doubt that it was any different before or during the Heresy than it was afterward. We actually have evidence to the contrary from 'Last Heretic.' So the Lion's opinion is more revealing about the Lion than about Guilliman: Jonson either does not know his brother very well or is a paranoiac (or both). Maybe it was a good time to be paranoid -- but if you're going to subscribe to that, then why complain about the way that Guilliman 'summoned' Jonson?

Then explain why he made a point of ordering the texts seized from the last bastion of one of the opposing orders, which was harboring Beasts, to be destroyed.

Easy:

Beasts = Bad

People Who Harbor Beasts = Bad

Books Written By People Who Harbor Beasts = Bad

No need for any understanding of Chaos here, much less a sophisticated one.

Other points:

- The others knew something about Codex Astartes before Guilliman demanded it be followed. How could they oppose it otherwise?

- The Word Bearers did not manufacture the Heresy.

- I did not say Jonson had it easy; I said Sanguinius did not have it easy.

- No, every Primarch did not have a vision of the Emperor. In fact, only Sanguinius, Lorgar, and Konrad Curze did. (Indeed, it is not clear that the figure in Lorgar's vision was even the Emperor. Lorgar has his own doubts.) Magnus met him in the Warp, however, which is not the same thing as a precognitive vision.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kanluwen wrote:That kind of paranoia is definitely acceptable.

Then so is the paranoia that occasioned the 'summoning.'

@BaronIveagh: There are no formal ties between all or even most of the Ultramarine successors. You're not the first person to think of the "ultra-legion" conspiracy and I didn't accuse you of making it up. It has no basis in fact. The only faction that still has formal alliances that preserve their common organizational descent are the Dark Angels.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

reds8n wrote:I read it all as Guilliman looked at the situation, realises that in all probability even if the Emperor survives or stops Horus the Imperium as it is, is finsihed. Whether or not he/his legion could have gotten there we don't know ( presumably until.. oohh.. next year IMO ). So he wouldn't have seen this as a betrayal, indeed it was just more of him following his father's orders to bring order to the cosmos and save humanity.

I think that is the reasonable conclusion and have been arguing as much. So the next logical step is realizing that Jonson's opinion of Guilliman doesn't tell us anything about Guilliman; rather, it tells us about the paranoia of the times and about Jonson's own character.

Kanluwen wrote:What "paranoia" justified the sudden talking down to of a brother Primarch?

See, this is the equivalent of the "necron brofist" criticism of Mat Ward. Or the GK "blood bathing" argument. You're taking something, putting your own spin on it, and then using the spinned argument as if it were a fact. Ward never wrote anything even close to a brofist or a blood bath and Guilliman did not talk down to Jonson. Guilliman told Jonson to come to a certain place. Now, things can be taken in various ways. For example, if I say "Kanluwen, give me your argument as to why you think Guilliman is being condescending" you could think "Manchu is asking that I give him my argument" or you could think "Manchu is ordering and demanding that I give him my argument." The way your interpret what I say is indicative of something about you and NOT of something about me. Now, the phrase I used says something about me. In the case we're discussing, Guilliman phrased it in a pragmatic way. "Come to X, there is trouble." And the Lion interpreted it as an upstart order? Fine. Next time, Guilliman should say "The Primarch of the Ultramarines humbly requests the illustrious presence of his honor and magnificence the esteemed and well-loved Lion El'Jonson, Primarch of the wonderful, beautiful, adorable Dark Angels. RSVP."

As I said, it's no wonder the Sons of the Lion wear dresses.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kanluwen wrote:So wait, you can hate on Jonson but Guilliman's offlimits?

I call shenanigans!

Call it all you like. It's okay to criticize someone for a sensible reason. But no one ever criticizes Guilliman for sensible reasons. Again, same goes for Mat Ward.

My point was: if Jonson's paranoia is justiifed because of the big picture then so is Guilliman's/

So . . . the Lion's feelings are hurt. I can imagine the conversation:

Jonson: "You used the wrong letterhead! How dare you!"

Guilliman: "Have you noticed there's a crisis going on?"

Jonson: "Yes! I just said so, didn't I? I mean, look at your handwriting on this invitation! Tsk tsk!"

@Hulksmash: Hold up, the point is that Baal was no picnic either and that Jonson wasn't unique in being confronted by Chaos. Jonson fought Chaos externally -- Sanguinius faced Chaos on the inside, in himself.

@Kanluwen & Hulksmash: Was Jonson justified in his paranoia? Yes, to the extent that it was directed against any other Primarch but not to the extent that it was directed at Guilliman specifically. Also there is a difference between saying "he might be a traitor" and "he wants to replace the Emperor." Jonson is implying the latter. The argument in this thread has been that he's implying the latter because Guilliman presumptuously 'summoned' him. That's a bit of a stretch. If the Lion thinks so, then that says something about Jonson and his view of Guilliman. It doesn't tell us anything about Guilliman.

Hulksmash wrote:You've obviously got an extreme....love...for Gulliman.

Yeah, I didn't use to like him because everyone who knew more about 40k than me didn't like him. But then I started to learn about 40k and realized that folks just didn't like him apparently because he was . . . really awesome? Too awesome? Really? He's actually a great character and very interesting. Whoever gets to do an UM novel, I hope they're up to the task. As for the Lion, I actually like him as well. I like all of them, really. What peeves me is the need to bash (sometimes literally, ADB) Guilliman in order to make the other Primarchs seem more interesting.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BaronIveagh wrote:BTW: Guilliman goes on to not only be 'just' the leader of Ultramarines, but also the commander of the entire military might of the Imperium as one of the first High Lords of Terra. Tell me how that's a step down again?

Sorry, I just saw this. The answer is that I was already talking about this: Guilliman goes from Primarch of the XIIIth Legion to High Lord or Terra Regent of the Imperium really to *just* Chapter Master of the Ultramarines/Lord Macragge.

Isn't Dorn the Regent of Terra? I never got the impression he was despised because of this . . .

But about Guilliman being fascinating . . .

- His lack of ego sets him apart from all of his brothers.
- He thinks he should have been Warmaster and Horus's treachery is proof that he was right (unless the Emperor himself planned the Heresy, which I think is likely).
- He's the only Imperial commander that's actually interested in leaving the galaxy better than he found it (discounting re-joining the Imperium/completing xeno-genocide being the sole definition of "better").
- Guilliman is the embodiment of the ideals of the Great Crusade: a rational, efficient, self-sufficient utopian. It's no surprise that the ONLY place (including Terra) where the Great Crusade was a lasting success is Ultramar -- and, by the way, it was already like that before the Emperor got there. Talk about efficient!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

he's preparing to secede and wants one of his most loyal and trusted brothers at his side to help him rule his own empire.

That is preposterous.

At first, I read "Magnus had no ego." Fortunately, I caught my mistake before my head exploded!

Hulksmash wrote:I find it hilarious that the idea that the Lion might have ulterior motives for not making it to Terra is acceptable cause he's "shadowy" but heaven forbid people question Gully and think that writing a book is a good reason not to head out to save the galaxy and his father.

For the sake of argument, let's say that both the UM and the DA sat Terra out on purpose. What are the motivations?

UM: Persevere in order to swing around and either (a) fortify the victorious but depleted loyalists (i.e., what actually happened) or (b) become a backup for Terra and the Imperium. Please note that (a) and (b) come to much the same thing.

DA: Become catatonic in the face of their internal civil war and loss of their Primarch (i.e., what actually happened).

So even if we measure their actions with this assumption, Guilliman turns out to be playing what the Baron called the "Long Game" while the Lion is just the victim of tragedy. Guilliman, in contrast to the Lion, is in control. Also, have you ever thought of what Guilliman's purpose might be? Russ, for example, was designed to serve a purpose: as an attack dog to keep traitorous Astartes in line. What might Guilliman's purpose have been?

. . . a backup Imperium -- so that the Emperor's vision would survive in part even in the case all went to gak (i.e., what actually happened)?

Another thing about the Lion . . .

He's kind of like the Emperor inasmuch as he has to deal with his own personal "Horus Heresy."

The question we all ask is "Why didn't the Emperor see it coming?" The idea that Horus was his favorite son doesn't seem completely convincing to me.

Similarly, why didn't Jonson notice Luther's treachery? Instead, the Lion suspects Guilliman. He ends up looking for the traitor in the completely wrong place -- the traitor isn't some other Primarch far away, but the serpent in his bosom.

The Emperor at least had no reason to be paranoid before Horus's treachery was revealed. But you'd think the Heresy would make each of the Primarch's take a hard look at their own legions.

In fact, that'd make a great UM HH book -- especially given what we found out (or seemed to find out?) in First Heretic.

Well, the we've threadjacked poor Red's BL N&R discussion. So I made it official: those looking for the BL N&R discussion can find it here:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/373580.page