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Werewolves: VC Special Choice

50 points for each Werewolf.

M WS BS S T W I A LD

Werewolf
6 4 0 5 5 3 4 3 8

Blood Thrall
6 5 5 4 4 1 5 1 7

Vampire Master
6 5 5 4 4 1 5 2 7

Unit Type: Monsters and Handlers (Monstrous Infantry)
Unit Size: 2+ Werewolves. There is 1 Blood Thrall for each werewolf.

One Blood Thrall may be upgraded to a Vampire Master . . . . . . . . . . . +75 points

Blood Thrall
Special Rules;
Undead

Equipment:
Hand Weapon,


Vampire Master
Special Rules:
Undead, Vampire, Beastmaster

Equipment:
Hand Weapon, Periapt of Lycanthropy

Werewolf:
Special Rules:
Unbreakable, Unstable, Hatred (All), Regenerate (5+), Eternal Hatred (Vampire), Blood Feud, Living Amongst the Dead

Equipment: [/u]
Massive claws and Teeth (hand weapon)

Blood Feud: The werewolves are almost as old as the vampires themselves. They once roamed the world without being controlled by anyone. The vampires saw them as another beast they could control and enslaved them. Since then, there has been a blood feud between the two undead races.

All units within 6" of a Werewolf are subject to stupidity, as the presence of a living thing nearby distracts them. If this unit is required to take a Monster Reaction Test, it will count any result of 3 or 4 as RAAARGH! (5-6).

Living Amongst the Dead: Werewolves are the only living unit in the vampire army. As such, anything that targets an Undead unit or model cannot affect werewolves. Werewolves are also not subject to the march restriction or wounds caused by the general’s death (note that even though the Blood Thralls and Vampire master are Undead they may still not be targeted or affected by anything that affects Undead). Vampires with the vampire power Summon Creatures of the Night may heal werewolves one wound per casting but will not raise them above their starting size. This will not heal Blood Thralls or Vampire Masters. Characters may not join this unit, as they are afraid of the werewolves attacking them.

Eternal Hatred (Vampire): The hatred of the werewolves is so strong against their vampire masters that they will re-roll to hit any model with the Vampire special rule in every turn of combat, not just the first.

Beastmaster: The Vampire Master is able to keep better control of the werewolves than a normal Blood Thrall. The Vampire Master is able to quell the stupidity caused to other nearby Undead units by the werewolves.

Periapt of Lycanthropy: This Periapt is a Bound Spell (Level 3). This spell will restore 1d6 wounds worth of werewolves. For each werewolf model that is put back, one blood thrall is has his wound healed. This spell can only target this unit.

**********************


so what do you think? i wasn't sure about the price. i think it may be too much but i'm not sure. let me know. thanks

Edit: 6/2/11

i rewrote the werewolves as a living unit instead of an Undead unit

THis is awsome.
ive often wanted to use my werewolf model in warhamer fantasy.
KEEP THIS UP
maybe rules for a werewolf army...

Monsters or monsterous infantry? A unit of monsters would be stupidly good with the multiple thunder stomps.
The charging friendly units is a mess.
For blood feud, how about if the werewolves give stupidity to all other undead within 6". That could represent the distraction of having werewolves too nearby.

The healing effect and the undead are kind of a toss up. I'd say ether make them living (and immune to psych), or keep them as is.

Finally, 100 points is too steep is they are monsterous infantry (stomp), and too cheap if they are monsters (thunderstomp). Play testing may show that invocation healing them from normal sources is too good.

Either way, I'd make the handlers, blooded, blood thralls, or something else; not a full vampire; no free march bubble for you.

-Matt

thank you for the feedback.

@master of ordinance
I have always liked werewolves more then vampires. i think that back in the day (i don't know for sure), that there might have actually been werewolves in the undead army book. i hope GW brings them back in the next book, whenever it may be.

@HawaiiMatt
i thought about your suggestions and so i removed vampire from the Vampire Handlers (now called Blood Thralls). i kept Vampire on the Master because he is supposed to be a master handler of the undead and so he kept the Vampire rule but also received a points increase.

they were supposed to be M.I. but i forgot to add that on. now fixed.

as for the healing i have a problem raising a single wraith each turn. i believe that the Periapt is needed for them to stand a chance. otherwise they will die and never be able to be raised from the dead. it won't be too big of a change because, as a bound item, it can only be cast once a turn. so any further healing will be at the rate of 1 wound per casting of Nehek.

as for the blood feud, i like the suggestion that you gave but i want a little more than that. so i think what i am going to do is this:
"All units within 6" of a Werewolf is subject to stupidity. A unit that includes a Vampire is not affected by this rule. If this unit is required to take a Monster Reaction Test, it will count any result of 3 or 4 as RAAARGH!" and change Beastmaster to "The Vampire Master is able to quell the stupidity caused to other nearby Undead units by the werewolves."

please keep the feedback coming. thank you.

I doubt it would WS 5. Werewolves are in more of a beserk frenzy in common folklore, but Vampires still had had skill and composure, just a thrist for blood. They should start with frenzy, as they have little control over they're actions. Pretty minor, but still. Good idea though.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Hellstorm wrote:
Blood Feud: The werewolves are almost as old as the vampires themselves. They once roamed the world without being controlled by anyone. The vampires saw them as another undead they could control and enslaved them. Since then, there has been a blood feud between the two undead races.


The werewolves are not subject to wounds caused by the general’s death. If there are ever less vampire handlers than there are werewolves, the werewolves must pass an unmodified leadership check (they may not benefit from a Battle Standard Bearer’s re-roll). This test isn’t taken if the unit is in combat. If they pass, the unit may act as normal. If the test is failed the unit may not move or charge as the vampires fight to restrain the werewolves. If the vampire handlers are all dead, the werewolves gain Frenzy and won’t ever lose frenzy. Every turn, they must reform to face and declare a charge against the nearest unit (friendly or enemy) unless they are in combat.

Werewolves aren't undead btw. And they aren't always werewolves, they are humans most of the time, they only change at full moon. Sorry if you already know this, but you need to show it by prehaps adding a rule like 'Full Moon' which means they must roll a dice every turn after (and including) the second. On a one, they take a S7 hit or gain stupidity and are inactive for that turn as they realise what they have become.

Lokirfellheart wrote:I doubt it would WS 5. Werewolves are in more of a beserk frenzy in common folklore, but Vampires still had had skill and composure, just a thrist for blood. They should start with frenzy, as they have little control over they're actions. Pretty minor, but still. Good idea though.

i thought about that but i felt that hatred was just a better way of representing this.

Lokirfellheart wrote:Automatically Appended Next Post:

Hellstorm wrote:
Blood Feud: The werewolves are almost as old as the vampires themselves. They once roamed the world without being controlled by anyone. The vampires saw them as another undead they could control and enslaved them. Since then, there has been a blood feud between the two undead races.


The werewolves are not subject to wounds caused by the general’s death. If there are ever less vampire handlers than there are werewolves, the werewolves must pass an unmodified leadership check (they may not benefit from a Battle Standard Bearer’s re-roll). This test isn’t taken if the unit is in combat. If they pass, the unit may act as normal. If the test is failed the unit may not move or charge as the vampires fight to restrain the werewolves. If the vampire handlers are all dead, the werewolves gain Frenzy and won’t ever lose frenzy. Every turn, they must reform to face and declare a charge against the nearest unit (friendly or enemy) unless they are in combat.

Werewolves aren't undead btw. And they aren't always werewolves, they are humans most of the time, they only change at full moon. Sorry if you already know this, but you need to show it by prehaps adding a rule like 'Full Moon' which means they must roll a dice every turn after (and including) the second. On a one, they take a S7 hit or gain stupidity and are inactive for that turn as they realise what they have become.

i know that normally werewolves aren't undead. but as far as immortals go there are 3 types in fantasy; the elves, the deamons, and the undead. werewolves just didn't fit in either of the two other groups so i just decided that counting them as undead would make the rules flow better.

Hellstorm wrote:
i know that normally werewolves aren't undead. but as far as immortals go there are 3 types in fantasy; the elves, the deamons, and the undead. werewolves just didn't fit in either of the two other groups so i just decided that counting them as undead would make the rules flow better.

Just add fluff that they aren't "crumbling" as much as being reverted to human form and then dispatched. The summoning doesn't summon as much as it spreads lycanthropy.
I'd let a vampire with creatures of the night (+1 to summon fellbats, dire wolves and bat swarms) also include werewolves. That power is really a turd in 8th edition, because all the listed creatures are non-infantry and as such you heal 1 wound instead of a D6.

As for the blood feud, I'd only let the master, not other vampires quell. Vampires should be worried about an enslaved ancient enemy running around loose without proper handlers. The Ld10 of vampire lords means they will very rarely lose their cool, but it might happen.

Do you plan on having the handlers fight, or simply be wound markers?
Can other vampires join this unit? A blood drinker in here would be nice, adding back wounds to those S5 T5 monsters.
Does a corpse cart with a load stone add +1 to summoning totals on these guys?

Finally, I don't like giving VC a "Vampire" in a special choice. One of the balances in the book is limited access to vampires, which limits marching. (characters and rares).
If anything, make the addition of the Vampire Master make the whole unit count as rares.

-Matt

HawaiiMatt wrote:Just add fluff that they aren't "crumbling" as much as being reverted to human form and then dispatched. The summoning doesn't summon as much as it spreads lycanthropy.
I'd let a vampire with creatures of the night (+1 to summon fellbats, dire wolves and bat swarms) also include werewolves. That power is really a turd in 8th edition, because all the listed creatures are non-infantry and as such you heal 1 wound instead of a D6.

i agree with you about summon creatures of the night being horrible. but as far as it affecting werewolves, i think it would just be too powerful to be able to raise additional models. can you imagine; cast once than use the Periapt, cast again and all of a sudden you have two more werewolves then you started with.

HawaiiMatt wrote:As for the blood feud, I'd only let the master, not other vampires quell. Vampires should be worried about an enslaved ancient enemy running around loose without proper handlers. The Ld10 of vampire lords means they will very rarely lose their cool, but it might happen.

you have a good point about that. i will definitely change that.

HawaiiMatt wrote:Do you plan on having the handlers fight, or simply be wound markers?
Can other vampires join this unit? A blood drinker in here would be nice, adding back wounds to those S5 T5 monsters.
Does a corpse cart with a load stone add +1 to summoning totals on these guys?

in the monsters and handlers rule the handlers may make supporting attacks as long as one of their monsters is touching someone.
it was not my intention to let characters join this unit due to the werewolves wanting to kill their captors.
yes it would add +1 right now. but i am considering rewriting them like Lokirfellheart said; without the undead rule and being living.

HawaiiMatt wrote:Finally, I don't like giving VC a "Vampire" in a special choice. One of the balances in the book is limited access to vampires, which limits marching. (characters and rares).
If anything, make the addition of the Vampire Master make the whole unit count as rares.

-Matt

i can understand your balance issue with a vampire in special. but how often have you actually had a unit that has been out of march range? for me it only happens once every 3-4 games and that is when my general decides he hates life, i mean un-life, and miscasts. generally, i can have my entire army inside a mach bubble with only 2 vampires.


i very much appreciate all the feedback. i think i will rewrite the unit with some of the suggested changes.
thank you and keep it coming.

Hellstorm wrote:
i can understand your balance issue with a vampire in special. but how often have you actually had a unit that has been out of march range? for me it only happens once every 3-4 games and that is when my general decides he hates life, i mean un-life, and miscasts. generally, i can have my entire army inside a mach bubble with only 2 vampires.


i very much appreciate all the feedback. i think i will rewrite the unit with some of the suggested changes.
thank you and keep it coming.

Must be different build types. I was coming up short on vampire all too often. That's with a thrall and lord (along with a necro and wight king). So I added a varghulf into the lists, just for the marching really.
I've been running my lord up flanks where he's safer, and I don't have him dying, but I do lose his march granting.

I like the Alive idea more, but I can't think of a good reason why werewolves would get it, and ghouls would not.

-Matt

my standard setup is 2 units of ghouls with a unit of grave guard in between them; just behind them is my support vampire in a unit of skeletons. this vampire's radius is just big enough to include all 3 units. my lord is usually with the blood knights.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
i rewrote the werewolves as living. i kept the vampire master as a Vampire but i increased his points. i also reworked the unit size and Blood Thralls per werewolf. i hope the new rule i have called Living Amongst the Dead works like i thought.

let me know what you think.

That looks pretty solid.
It's also be a nice change of pace from the typical grave guard spam.

-Matt

HawaiiMatt wrote:That looks pretty solid.
It's also be a nice change of pace from the typical grave guard spam.

-Matt

well to be honest grave guard are the only decent special and some of the rares aren't worth their points.

now i just have to make models and get some local players to agree to play with the rules.

Hellstorm wrote:

HawaiiMatt wrote:That looks pretty solid.
It's also be a nice change of pace from the typical grave guard spam.

-Matt

well to be honest grave guard are the only decent special and some of the rares aren't worth their points.

now i just have to make models and get some local players to agree to play with the rules.

Which rares aren't worth the points?
I've dominated games because of wraiths, found that a M9 vampire regenerating monster to be a deal at 175, and seen coaches suck up enough power dice to neuter opponents.
I haven't seen bloodknights on the table, but math-hammer says they crush things.

Special-wise, fell bats as warmachine hunters are nice and cheap, and black knights are decent as flanking support. Spirit hosts is the only special I would not consider, and that is because I can create them for free. Outside of fighting daemons, I've found opponents have a tough time with ethereals, especially since most fighting heroes are now geared to survive rather than strike.

-Matt

HawaiiMatt wrote:Which rares aren't worth the points?
I've dominated games because of wraiths, found that a M9 vampire regenerating monster to be a deal at 175, and seen coaches suck up enough power dice to neuter opponents.
I haven't seen bloodknights on the table, but math-hammer says they crush things.

Special-wise, fell bats as warmachine hunters are nice and cheap, and black knights are decent as flanking support. Spirit hosts is the only special I would not consider, and that is because I can create them for free. Outside of fighting daemons, I've found opponents have a tough time with ethereals, especially since most fighting heroes are now geared to survive rather than strike.

-Matt

yes i do agree that the rares are good but if the wraiths get charged by any unit of 20 or more they die; the coach always takes more of my dice than i can handle; the vargulf is awesome but still dies too easily; and the blood knights always get killed by a single spell.

honestly i haven't tried any of the specials besides the GG. this is, again, due to how hard they are to raise.

A'ight, I hate to be the first to say "hey, this is whack", but here goes:

1: that thing with Werewolves and Vampires? Completely fabricated by Underworld. No mythology or even semi-old literature talks about the "blood feud" between these two races. And Underworld borrowed heavily from White Wolf Games' Vampire and Werewolf rule systems (enough to get sued). Warhammer is it's own thing, and they don't really borrow from much beyond Tolkien (who doesn't).

So...the first problem is the biggest: I don't think Werewolves should be in a VC army. Beastmen? Sure. Wood Elves? Possible. Not VC.

2: Werewolf mythology is extremely varied. Sometimes they change by the light of Luna, sometimes they can bring it about through force of will. Sometimes they pass on the disease via bite, other times they're considered a different race altogether. I'd recommend looking at some of it (anything that isn't Underworld or it's spawn). Take mostly from those legends that involve lycanthropes as horrible evil monsters, though. This is Warhammer, after all. These are the End Times.

3: I believe ghouls are technically alive, but can't quite run away, because they're so throughly whipped into slavery by the vampire's oppressive will, yes-yes?
There's no good way to do this with werewolves. And having monsters that take Break tests, with handlers that crumble? Nightmare. Another reason to make these something other than Vampire units.

The rules are solid; these guys seem pretty reasonable for the price. I just loath this vampire/werewolf thing.

Ok, so lets take a look at these.
1) Werewolves in Vampire armies. Why have them? Because they used to be in the undead book, and they fit better in vampires than tomb kings. The previous GW vampire book had rules for vampires turning into wolves.
2) Mythology: none of the rules have reference to what causes the transformation, so this is largely moot. Being horribly evil does fit in with vampire counts.
3) Ghouls are alive, and did flee in previous editions. Now they crumble. The proposed rules for werewolves have the wolves crumble (and unbreakable) so their is no rules conflict with vampires.
Seems like you just have an issue with Underworld.


As for 20+ units killing wraiths, maybe you should try more wraiths. I run 5 (250 points), and I find that the 15 S5 attacks is enough to absorb 3 ranks, and standard.

-Matt

i run 5 (but with a banshee) and i can never get them to kill enough to win a combat except against chariots, bowmen or war machines. that is what i have been using them for lately.

Matt:

Previous editions of Warhammer may have had werewolves in with the undead (sort of a "movie monsters hang out together" idea, I guess), but the game has become more serious with later editions. In tone, I mean.
Vampires turning into wolves is part of vampire mythology, along with bats, rats, cats, banks of fog, etc. Werewolves are their own thing; merely using the word "werewolf" conjures up a lot of preconceived notions.

I was suggesting, mainly in response to Lokirfellheart, that there's a lot of mythology to draw from when it comes to shape-shifting. Native American shamanism/naturalism. Pagan rituals. Satanic curses. Etc. I was suggesting to draw from a few of these, erring on the side of "werewolves are horribly evil killing machines" (which fits into...basically any of the books. Even a lot of the "good" ones).
Also, on a similar note: Vampires don't seem to be all about enslaving other creatures. More about animating corpses. I'm sure it could make sense, but the explanations given don't fit in just yet.

And as far as ghouls and werewolves both being alive etc., I was actually seconding one of your previous comments.

So, as I said, the rules are solid. But the aesthetic idea doesn't fit in to the Warhammer world.
What would: 10ft. regenerating patchwork corpses that eat the dead to heal or something. Similar role, similar rules. Better fit.

Warpsolution wrote:
Also, on a similar note: Vampires don't seem to be all about enslaving other creatures. More about animating corpses. I'm sure it could make sense, but the explanations given don't fit in just yet.
And as far as ghouls and werewolves both being alive etc., I was actually seconding one of your previous comments.

These are the two statements I don't follow.
Vampires are about animating corpses.
Ghouls are alive, and ok in a vampire army.

IMO, werewolves fit just as well as ghouls.
If I were to write it up, I'd ditch the whole ancient enemy thing, and just have werewolves as monsterous infantry (no handlers).
I'd go with frenzy, and alive. I'd also make them cheaper, but take away the ability to heal them (that's what regen is); maybe let them heal when they wipe out a unit, to represent the spread of lycanthropy.

Vampires do have a lot of fluff about enslavement of others, transfixing gaze, all the background on strigoi, and so on.

-Matt

Vampires enslave others in a very sexual way; it's about the domination of the will, rather than chains and manacles.

Ghouls are corpse-eating madmen, reverted to a near-animal state. They've got a lot in common with zombies, vampires, wights, etc.
And I'm not saying that Vampires can do zero things involving straight-up slavery and/or that they only animate the dead. But the text that explains why werewolves are amongst their ranks, "The vampires saw them as another beast they could control and enslaved them", implies that this is just another feather in the many-feathered cap of the collective vampires. Which is not the case.

Once more, the rules are pretty solid; I like units that beat people up and can take a beating, without a million and one special rules beyond Frenzy or the like. But I've dug my heels in when I say that, from a literary standpoint, it clashes with the existing canon.