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All the merc warjacks are terrible with low stats across the board.

Is it possible to run a decent list with only infantry? Namely steelheads, etc against other armies with Warjacks?

Well, you'd be wasting your jack points, but I suppose if you got an infantry themed caster and didn't mind the handicap...
Reckon it's worth taking one jack though.

But the jacks are comparatively cheap. Nomad is six points for something with reach. Mule 8 points for a critical devastation that is lovely (when it happens). Buccaneer, 3 points and a 13" threat of knockdown.

Tournament rules, no, it would not be legal to run a Jackless army as you're not allowed to be more than 2pts under, and no Casters have that few Jack pts.

And Mercs still have some nice Jacks.

You have to run at least one jack to take up Jack points, as those can't be spent elsewhere. So take a Mule (to cover all your jack points as well as get an aoe) and take infantry from there.

As far as Merc jacks go, the Mule and the Nomad are both pretty awesome. The Nomad is a dirt-cheap beatstick with reach, and the Mule can wreck things with his cannon. I think both are very worth their points.

Ah, right Warjack points.

If I plan to run the minimum amount of jacks can I still be competitive with 90% infantry?

I feel most other people will have 3+ jacks in their army and my infantry will have a hard time.

What is the best merc jacks? The Mule and Nomad are just generic jacks with worse stats.

DorianGray wrote:Ah, right Warjack points.

If I plan to run the minimum amount of jacks can I still be competitive with 90% infantry?

I feel most other people will have 3+ jacks in their army and my infantry will have a hard time.

What is the best merc jacks? The Mule and Nomad are just generic jacks with worse stats.

It depends on your list. Some armies have an easier time with lots of infantry than others.

Not necessarily. It just depends on what your taking again.

Compared to what exactly? When comparing jacks you need to compare cost as well as stats. Worse stats means cheaper. Therefore the Mule and Nomad are good jacks for Mercs.

Aduro wrote:Tournament rules, no, it would not be legal to run a Jackless army as you're not allowed to be more than 2pts under, and no Casters have that few Jack pts.

And Mercs still have some nice Jacks.

This is completely wrong. Tournament rules do not require the expenditure of warjack points from the caster. The caster points are bonus points and only subtract points from the cost of the jack(s) purchased. All that tourney rules require is that you are within 2 points of whichever point level is being used. So if you have 35 points of units and solos and zero points of jacks you are still legal for a 35 point tourney.

pMagnus or eMagnus and a Renegade comes to +/-0 points. I wouldn't run Magnus with one warjack, but you could.

Fiona the Black doesn't really need warjacks.

I think Fiona might be the only practical way to do it. Taking down high arm jacks isn't exactly simple without a beatstick jack of your own.


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Also, freebooter is an excellent 6 point beatstick if you have the devil dogs to provide knockdown.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:

Aduro wrote:Tournament rules, no, it would not be legal to run a Jackless army as you're not allowed to be more than 2pts under, and no Casters have that few Jack pts.

And Mercs still have some nice Jacks.

This is completely wrong. Tournament rules do not require the expenditure of warjack points from the caster. The caster points are bonus points and only subtract points from the cost of the jack(s) purchased. All that tourney rules require is that you are within 2 points of whichever point level is being used. So if you have 35 points of units and solos and zero points of jacks you are still legal for a 35 point tourney.

http://privateerpress.com/files/Official%20Steamroller%202011%20Rules.pdf

Army list point totals cannot exceed the point size chosen for the game and cannot fall more than 2 points under the point size chosen for the event. Players must include all warcaster’s or warlock’s bonus warjack or warbeast points in their army lists. A 50-point Kaelyssa army, for example, must include 55 to 57 points of models.

Sorry, Leo. 'Jack and 'Beast points alter the size of your army list. You have
to spend those points for Steamrollers.

Prime p38- "...Warcasters do not cost army points to include in your army but instead grant some number of warjack points that can be spent only on warjacks for your warcaster's battlegroup. These bonus points are in addition to the army's points determined by the encounter level. Each warcaster's warjack points that are not spent on warjacks for his battlegroup are lost."(emphasis added by me)

Based on this I concluded that you do not need to buy jacks (the caster points are bonus points). Since it says that you can forfeit your bonus points and there is no maximum forfieture of 2 points (which would be the case in your ruling) there is no reason that you can't forfiet all of your bonus points.

Just how I see it.

edit: It seems strange that the base ruleset doesn't have this requirement. So I guess I'm wrong when it comes to tournies but was correct when it comes to playing by the normal rules.

Eh, turning down free points is kinda dumb regardless of if its allowed, unless your whole goal is to win without jacks (or just don't own any).

At the very least throw a vanguard in and have it absorb a few shots with shield guard.

DorianGray wrote:What is the best merc jacks? The Mule and Nomad are just generic jacks with worse stats.

Worse than what? With SPD5 and reach Nomad (and Mule for that matter) can out-threaten about 90+% of enemy heavy warjacks, while ARM19 (with buckler) means they are quite survivable. Sure POW17 is low-ish but add some support (Lady Aiyana, Gorman, Ragman) and they can easily outperform other faction jacks. And since they are extremely cheap you can afford to take that support. Mules are also great, though they are usually better when marshaled, by either Sam and Devil Dogs (Pronto drive + aiming for 17 threat range) or Arcane Tempest Gun Mage Officer (rune shot is fantastic with Mule).

Don't knock the Merc jacks until you try them. They're quite effective despite their relatively low points cost.

If you want to go infantry heavy, I'll also recommend the new Merc caster Captain Damiano. His rules are in the most recent NQ. He works very well with an assortment of Steelheads. Also you'll want a Nomad with him, and not just for using the jack points. Warpath gets the Nomad +3" of movement, and Damiano's feat gives it (and everybody else, but we're focusing on the jack here) +3 STR and +3 ARM. That comes to a P+S 20, ARM 22 Nomad with a 13" threat range.

You run cheap jacks o_O Just buy a jack that`s the exact allocation of jack points and take the free heavy armour. Can an army survive at one jack? Up to 35 points yes. I run a single jack and have had great success. Admittedly this jack is the Beast-09. Anyways, unlike hordes we do not need jacks. They're nice, but our infantry in warmachine is pretty darn good.

Merc 'Jacks are great, I declare Heresy. The Mangler is just freaking gold, especially against infantry. Hell, you can hardly go wrong with a Nomad. P+S 17 isn't the best, nor is ARM 19, but this isn't 40k, they stand a great chance at taking out Juggernauts or other heavies, they just need the right support.

On running a list with just one Jack and the rest infantry... Cryx does it all the time. Only two of my lists ever run more than two Helljacks, and usually it's just one. Arc Nodes are another matter, and I may have a couple of those instead of or in addition to a Helljack. For example my current eBastard list boasts 37 Troopers and 16 solos, with only a single Helljack and no Bonejacks. I'm told it's quite intimidating to see on the other side of the table.


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Leo_the_Rat wrote:
edit: It seems strange that the base ruleset doesn't have this requirement. So I guess I'm wrong when it comes to tournies but was correct when it comes to playing by the normal rules.

Yeah, only applies to Tournaments, and I did specify that in my first post. Not all that uncommon for games to have extra rules and restriction in their tournament formats that do not exist in their standard games. A more common and simple one would be when painting is required. I've never seen a rulebook require it, but tournaments do it all the time.

Keep in mind that the Battle Engines are basically 9-10 pt infantry-clearing models.

I would hate to be an infantry-heavy merc player and run up against, for example, pHaley and the Stormstrider (2+2d3 dead infantry models/turn) or pVlad and the Khador Gun Carriage (2x Pow14 4" blasts, impact attacks and mass trample) or a 2x Wraith Engine list (incorporeal, and basically infinite infantry-killing Reach attacks on a 5" base as long as it can keep hitting non-tough, living models).

Bottom line, Wrath (an entirely new edition) is coming out in two weeks and beyond 15+ models and releases for each faction, it throws Battle Engines (which are predominantly anti-infantry) and who knows what other meta-shifts into the mixture.

PP definitely seems to be continuing a trend away from infantry machine, making warjacks/Big Stuff more resilient and central to force compositions.

What seems 'difficult, but doable' right now, ala infantry-centric mercs, could really suck in just a few weeks. Regardless, I think you're going to be fighting against the trend.

Battle Engines seem best suited for Unbound games though. You'd be hard pressed to field one in 35, and even in a 50 it's still seems like it would be a big enough target in a small enough force to get focused down with out dishing out much payback

Uh, what?

On average, battle engines are equivalent points to faction warjacks with similar Armor to faction warjacks. They have half to 2/3 as many boxes, but never suffer system damage and typically have a significant defensive buff and/or stay at a range that keeps them as safe or moreso, comparatively.

Stormstrider 9, Defender 9
Gun Carriage 9, Destroyer 9
AFG 10, Myrmidons range 9+

Battle Engines are by no means auto-include at 35 or even 50, but they're going to be quite common sights at almost any point level. I run a gun carriage with pVlad at 35 pts to good effect.

If you've already got infantry that can clear heavy jacks and resist the kind of heavy firepower some jacks bring down then I don't see battleengines (at least not any I've seen stats for) as something that can't be dealt with.

sourclams wrote:...
Bottom line, Wrath (an entirely new edition) is coming out in two weeks and beyond 15+ models and releases for each faction, it throws Battle Engines (which are predominantly anti-infantry) and who knows what other meta-shifts into the mixture.

Sorry for the tangent, but couple notes. Wrath is not a new edition. Books like it are called "compendiums" by PP themselves, it seems. THey introduce new rules and models, sure, but the edition is still MkII. Its more a terminology thing, but worth noting. Also, while there are a lot of SKUs right now, we don't know the total relases. With PP doing a book about a year as their current plan, I think that about 11-13 models is more what to expect, as this will be the releases for this and into the coming year. If they do another compilation by August 2012, simple logic means they cna't put too much.

Right now SKUs aren't lining-up with predicted pagecount very well. Seeing as warcasters and the battle engines shown so far have taken two pages, and we have six casters and five battle engines, for instnace, that's 22 of 179 pages already eaten-up by these. We don't know how much there will be for modeling, painting guides, fluff, and the lot either. Simply put, don't expect all those SKUs to be filled this book, I think.

sourclams wrote:PP definitely seems to be continuing a trend away from infantry machine, making warjacks/Big Stuff more resilient and central to force compositions.

Some yes, some no. For instnace, things like Ragman, the Ranking OFficiers, and casters like Damiano, to me, support a more combined-arms playstyle than a move any way or another. Some casters do well with infantry hordes (Damiano, Shae, Vindictus, eSorcha, eAsphyxious, Xerxis, eMadrak). Others prefer a mix and perform best with both (Kromac, Harbinger, Calandra, pMakeda, the Butcher), others depend on warjacks or warbests, but need infantry to work (pKaya, Bart, Carver, Reznik) and others go all-out and and take as many big things as they can (eKaya, eDoomshaper, Darius, Karchev, Kraye.)

I don't think PP is going towards one or the toher. They do seem to be working to deal with "infantry bricks" a bit, with stuff like the battle engines, and the Daemon. But I think saying they are trending any direction is questionable, I think.

sourclams wrote:...What seems 'difficult, but doable' right now, ala infantry-centric mercs, could really suck in just a few weeks. Regardless, I think you're going to be fighting against the trend.

Again, I think its worth seeing. Damiano, for instance, does pretty good against a lot of these things. And its not like the rough terrain and stuff scare him on his feat, and with solos like Saxon and the Piper about.

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Sparks wrote:Battle Engines seem best suited for Unbound games though. You'd be hard pressed to field one in 35, and even in a 50 it's still seems like it would be a big enough target in a small enough force to get focused down with out dishing out much payback

Battle engines more replace heavy warjacks for some casters who really can't support more then their allotted points.

For instance, Khador doesn't tend to run many havies except for the Butchers and Karchev, as I see it. This means you don't take, say, Destroyers unless you really support them, I think. Its jsut going to do more then them with Irusk, Sorscha, Ravyn, Skarre, Venethrax, or eCaine. They don't really want to take too much big things, as they can't fuel them. This lets them ahve something that's a bit less dependent on them, to do some work.

They aren't great with everyone. But they are good with who they are good with. Just that for soem factions (Cryx I think esepcially) Its just not feeding into the "top rung' as much.

And stuff.