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Hello

Ok, so, I'm feeling the saturation of Fantasy and Sci Fi gaming, and as part of my exploration of all things non GW, I really want to experience historical wargaming. To be honest, I've always avoided this genre, I had it in my mind that playing a historical game was kind of like reading a book you've already finished....i.e, you know how the story ends....however, if I put that notion to one side, I find I am intrigued by the miniatures and the curiosity to play a few games.

So why do I need help? Well, I've started trawling the web, and I have to say there is SO much out there (miniatures wise), quite frankly it's staggering.....so, I guess like any gamer, the first thing I need is a set of rules. Ideally I'd be interested in eras like the Crusades, which period of the crusades is not so big a deal at this stage, but I'm also interested in the War of the Roses and th English Civil War (?)....and of course, Napoleonics (who didn't like Sharpes Rifles )

So can you guys help? Can you suggest some rules sets that are well known and widely used?

My final question....how easy is it to find historical gaming clubs (I'm looking specifically at the UK) I'm not a historian (I am willing to learn!) but I'd be looking for groups that were gamers first and history Nazi's ( ) second....any ideas?

I thank you in advance for your help, and helping me to take my first steps into a completely new realm of gaming.

Well I could recommend game systems but i think first and foremost you should probably find out what the historical scene of your area is since historicals is very broad. It wouldnt help if you had an ECW army if everyone played Medieval or you have a nicely painted 28mm WotR army and everyone around you has 1/72. I dont live in the UK so I don't know any specific clubs but I'm willing to bet many of them are friendly to newcomers. Perhaps google could help?

Although if I were to favor certain rules, I do like Warlord's Black Powder and Hail Caesar. Some of my other choices would be DBA, Indeptus, or WAB

Historical Wargaming

Land, Naval and Aerial
Land warfare is most popular however there are thriving specialist scenes for naval and aerial too.

Skirmish and Mass Battle
The basic division is between skirmish games, in which one figure equals one man, and mass battles, in which one figure equals many men. The advantage of skirmish is you usually only need 10-20 figures per side, though I have played Vietnam skirmishes with several platoons (about 100 men) per side.

Mass battle rules require the figures to be mounted onto rectangular bases representing units, which are usually grouped into tight formations. The formations are often grouped into larger formations such as divisions and corps. The organisation of these small and large formations becomes an important factor in playing.


Periods
Historical warfare covers the whole gamut of history from 3,000 BC to the present day. It can be divided up into periods reflecting the technical changes on the battlefield. Longer periods are often sub-divided into popular sub-periods.

You’ll normally find that the rules for a whole period allow unhistorical armies to fight on an even basis, but people often stick within a sub-period because they want to reenact historical battles and campaigns.

However there is often an overlap in the rules between periods because history is continuous and didn’t have the kind of neat divisions that look good in book titles.


Ancient & Mediaeval
Cover 3,000BC to 1500AD by which time gunpowder weapons were present at most battles and having a noticeable effect.

Ancients can be sub-divided into the following popular periods.

Biblicals -- The period from 3,000BC until about 700BC by which time cavalry was starting to be used with effect.

Greco-Persian Wars -- The period lasting about two hundred years during which the Greek city states fought against the Persian Empire. Also cover Alexander’s invasion of Persia, and the long Pelopponesian War between Athens and Sparts.

Punic Wars -- Rome versus Carthage in a series of wars that ranged over much of the Mediterranean.

Imperial Rome -- Rome’s expansion from about the time of Julius Caesar (50BC) to 200AD. Also covers some civil wars.

The Crusades -- Franks versus Arabs versus Mongols versus Byzantines in a series of wars between the late 11th century and late 13th century.

Hundred Years War -- The rivalry between the ruling houses of England and France fought out in a series of campaigns between 1337 and 1453. The age of the longbow.

Wars of the Roses -- An English civil war that followed the 100 Years War. The end of the WoTR is taken by British wargamers as the end of the Mediaeval period.

Popular Rules
WRG 7th edition / Warrior -- Still used by some people but regarded as old fashioned now. They were in their time the absolute acme of A&M. It was the WRG series that established the standard base sizes followed by nearly all rulesets since.

De Bellis Antiquitatis -- 20 years old but still very popular. Simple and quick-playing, requiring only a small army (usually about 50 figures), these rules from WRG set a new direction for A&M and have stood the test of time. Because the armies are small many players buy a matched pair and fight campaigns.
A variant set called DBM was produced which introduces more complex army points values. It has been rolled forwards into DBMM.

De Bellis Milites Magistorum -- A modern development using some principles from DBA. DBMM is in competition with Field of Glory and Impetus to establish itself as the de facto standard ruleset. None of them seem to be winning.

Field of Glory -- A lush, well-produced modern set supported by a complete range of “army books” each of which covers a popular sub-period such as Imperial Rome.

Impetus -- I don’t know much about these except they are pretty well regarded but seem to be coming in 3rd behind DBMM and FoG.

Warmaster Ancients -- Produced by Warhammer Historical they have not been well supported and are currently OOP though you should probably be able to find copies without too much trouble. Aimed at 10mm figures they use the standard WRG base sizes and can easily be used with other scale figures. Somewhat more “gamey” than simulation, they play fairly quickly but have not taken off as a competition ruleset.

Warhammer Ancient Battles -- A variation of Warhammer Fantasy Battles, they will be easy to pick up for anyone who has played WHFB or WH40K. The downside is that most of the rule concepts and in particular the base sizes are different to everyone else’s rules, so once you build an army for this you are a bit stuck with it. Nonetheless they have a pretty good following because of WH/FB/40K’s popularity and work well as a “gamey” sort of game.

Figure Scales
In the UK, 15mm is the most popular scale for A&M, followed by 25/28mm. Figures are also available in 2mm, 6mm, 10/12mm and 18/20mm. The advantage of 15mm compared to 28mm is that the models are cheaper and easier to paint, and larger battles can be fought on the same size of table.


Renaissance
This covers the period of roughly 1500AD to about 1650 during which time armour and non-gunpowder weapons were still widely used, and the amount of musketry on the battlefield increased until it was the majority.
WRG used to do a well regarded set of Renaissance rules. Apart from that I don’t know much about the period.

Pike & Shot
This covers the period of roughly 1620 to 1710 during which armour disappeared from the battlefield, and the flintlock musket with bayonet came to be the key infantry weapon.

30 Years War -- 1618-1638; a series of religious and political conflicts that involved most of Europe except the British.

ECW -- 1642-1651; a series of religious and political conflicts that involved only the British.

War of the Spanish Succession -- 1701-1714. A Europe wide dynastic war that ended the Pike & Shot period.

Lace Wars -- A general term for the kind of battles fought during the 18th century, involving linear tactics with musket armed infantry, relatively immobile artillery and little use of light troops for scouting and skirmishing. The Seven Years War is the best known conflict from this period.

Napoleonics -- The Big Daddy of wargaming, it has always been one of the most popular periods for several reasons. (1) In some way we can see that the modern world was born from the French Revolution and wars that followed, culminating the Treaty of Vienna that set up the post-war European balance of power that persisted until the start of the First World War. (2) Superb uniforms and hats. (3) A very interesting period tactically because of the good balance of power between the cavalry, infantry and artillery. (4) Some of the greatest generals ever were in command and produced campaigns and battles which are still regarded as classics of the military art.

I use 6mm Baccus figures and Polemos “Marechal de l’Empire” rules for Napolenics. However, as one of the most popular periods it offers a very wide variety of rulesets and figure scales.

19th Century -- Covers all the various 19th century conflicts of which the American Civil War, Crimean War and Colonials generally stand out as popular. Colonials is often fought as skirmish games using the Sword And The Flame rules.

20th Century
Obviously we have the Great War, World War 2 and the Vietnam War. Ultra-modern was fairly popular in the 80s when a land war between NATO and the USSR seemed possible, but now it is in the realm of science fiction. There are people playing modern day counter-insurgency skirmish games, however it seems that the more recent the events the less popular they are for a game topic.


Finding A Club
Most clubs play a variety of periods so your best bet is to find one, go along and see what is happening, before you make any decisions as to what to get into.

You should be able to find clubs through Google, however if you have trouble I should contact a big club like South London Warlords, who may well have contacts around the country.

It would also be worth visiting a couple of wargame shows to see what is on offer, and maybe grab a few issues of Wargames Illustrated.

Wow, that's a wealth of information...thank you both!

There's so much out there, it really makes the Sci Fi fantasy secne look like it's in its infancy.

One other thing, I must say I'm loving the price of these miniatures and I'm looking at Perry Miniatures.

@KilKrazy, it does seem a shame that I can't simply pick the era/eras I am interested in, build my army, and go play....but I understand that this form of gaming appears well established and if you want to join a club then you have to toe the line....so to speak

Thank you again for your help guys!

In my experience most clubs have several things going on:

Club Projects - The club agree to do a period and pays for all the stuff, individual members agree to paint various parts. Usually a game to take to conventions to promote the club.

Cooperative Projects: A couple of like minded members decide to do a period and buy and paint a side each.

Individual Projects: Two types here, the truly individual project (WFB and 40K are good examples) where you buy and paint an army for a system that most club members play and the game project (the most common) where you buy and paint both sides to "put on" games for club members.

A big difference between the Historical club scene and the "GW" scene is that "pick up" games are very rare, games are organized before the night in a way that everybody gets to play and most games are not 1 on 1 but will involve multiple players. A typical night at my club will see 3-4 games with 4-6 players on each game.

Most places in the UK have their own club or one very near by, you'd be surprised, I live in sleepy rural Devon and there are 7 clubs within an hours drive of me.

Where do you live? I might be able to point you in the right direction.

Don't worry so much about turning up with something, most clubs will have something you can join in with and will be understanding whilst you get something together.

If your into the Wars of the Roses the Perry's have just brought out the most fantastic range of plastics for that and they are incredible value.

@ Aldramelech

I must say, when you make the comparison to the "GW Hobby" historicals sound much more my scene.

I'm based in Warwick, so I wouldn't be surprised if there wasn't at least one club around here.....I just haven't been able to find them, my google-fu must be very weak!

Any advice or help in finding a "local" group though would be gratefully recieved.

Here you go Dude:

http://www.warwickshire.gov.uk/corporate/communit.nsf/0/EEB280AFB6D065898025676E00552809?opendocument

Wow, thanks alot....I guess I was looking in the wrong place....I'll give those guys a call and see what systems they are involved with....hopefully Napoleonics...I need an excuse to buy lots of Perry Miniatures

This was a lot of help to me, too. Killkrazy, with a little work your post could be made into a great "intro to historical wargaming" article. I'm also interested in some historical gaming in the future. It seems like a pretty chilled out way to do things- and a reasonably good way to learn a bit of history too!
Delephont: Your attitude is almost identical to mine. Although I'm interested in Celts, Vikings and Normans mostly (a bit cliché, but the history I learned in school is what appeals to me!)

Maybe I'll polish it up a bit and make it an article.

It's just a quick overview.

If anyone reading this post is anywhere near South Shropshire then myself and some others are looking to set up a club based in Bridgnorth. I am trying to get a good core of historical players, my interests are Dark Age, and WWI in the East but hopefully there will be a wider selection than this.

Bridgnorth.....that's only a hour from me. I'd be interested, can you send me some details

At the moment I don't really have many details. We still need to speka to the people that run the pub and see if we can use thier upstairs rooms. The thinking is at the moment that it will be fortnightly on a Wednesday. I'll let you know more when we've organised it.

Just wanted to say great overview KK. Very imformative. I play mostly Flames of War on the historical side now, but used to be very into Colonial and Darkest Africa 19th century conflicts as well. My *biggest* problem was finding other players. Many people like the OP consider historical gaming rather dry and uninspiring if they haven't really played it before. Usually those I dragged into colonials kicking and scream eventually stopped doing both, though I put up with continued kicking if they at least stopped the screaming.

Skriker

I recomend Flames Of War, quite easy to pick up, and not that demanding on the wallet either. You also can varey the size of the game. I have played patrol skirmishes, and massive pitched battels. Both works very well.

The liteature for FoW is also very good, army building is also easy with points listed in the army index, you can choose eveything from a panzer companie or a scout regiment. They also released the early war periode some time ago I belive, building a 1939 French army could be fun, and not at least intresting both historical and gamingwise. Same goes for common wealth armies( India, NZ, Australia, Sougth Africa, Ghurkas and so on)

Early war has been out for Flames of War since the beginning of the year. It is a very enjoyable era to play in for the game. Once the tigers and massive russian tanks start to come in the game gets a little more annoying for those of us who play armies other than germans or russians. Even the heaviest tanks in early war, the Matilda II, which is impervious to a lot of ATGs is no where near as useful in small numbers as tigers are. They also next to useless when facing dug in infantry due to having no HE rounds for their main gun. So they can charge forward and sit near an objective, but will have a near impossible time of destroying any infantry that might be dug in on the object location. Makes for a lot more balance in the games I feel. Even the massive French Char B1-bis tanks have their historic limitations and cannot dominate a battle either.

All in all I far prefer Early war to either Mid or Late war and prefer Mid war to Late war. Our previous league was run in midwar. At the end there was a big multiplayer battle which I wasn't able to make it down to play. Kind of glad I couldn't make it, because as a Brit player I would have been useless trying to use my midwar gear against all the tigers and panthers on the opposite side of the table. BOR-ING!!

Skriker

Here's a useful link for people looking for wargames clubs - http://www.newarkirregulars.org.uk/links/clubs.html

I'm not sure how up to date the links are, but even if the link is dead, you will have a name to google.

tbh I'm not sure where this 'history nazi' reputation comes from with historical gamers. I have been playing for 30 years and no one has ever said anything about uniform details, buttons or any such thing. Eyebrows might be raised if you pitted Russian Crimeans against Greek Hoplites, but I doubt anyone would stop you.

As for what period to play, I would advise finding a club, going to a few meetings, and trying out a game or two before buying any figures or rules. Clubs are generally friendly, and players willing to let you join in games. Having said that if you want to play a game/period that isn't played at the club, then just pick up a couple of small forces and if it is a good game then it shouldn't be too long before others start buying in.