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So to not further derail another thread, I have created this one.

On the topic of melee units, it was suggested that Dire Avengers be used to take on TH / SS terminators.

It was also suggested to run the numbers, this is what I come up with.

10x Dire Avengers (177)
- Exarch
- - Storm Shield / Power Weapon
- - Defend
- - Bladestorm

Farseer (130)
-Spirit Stones
- Doom
- Fortune

Total - 307

Obviously, I left off some upgrades from the Farseer. Runes will not be used in this, and only increase his cost, and thus not necessary other than to weigh him down with unneeded upgrades. I gave him doom because I felt that without it, the avengers stand absolutely no chance needing 5+ to wound (Banshee syndrome).

On the other side of things:

5x Assault Terminators (200)
- 5x Storm Shield / Thunder Hammer

For the pure hilarity of the situation, I have given the terminators all TH / SS. I don't know about your area, but I only know one person who does this around here, and he has yet to actually use his models.



Now, lets see some combat numbers. (May need help, my math involving dice probability sucks, so if I make a mistake, feel free to correct it)
First simulation: Land Raider transport has already been destroyed by the Eldar player. Eldar has already disembarked, and has left the farseer in the serpent to use his powers.

First, I would like everyone to keep this in mind for the Farseer. Probability of their powers going off WITHOUT the interference of some psychic defense or Runes of Witnessing...
Fortune - 83% chance of Success
Guide - 83% Chance of Success
Both - 69% Chance of Success

Dire Avengers shooting, Blade Storm Active:
27 shots.
22 shots hit
11 Wounds dealt
An additional 6 shots wound after re-rolls. Total of 18 wounds.
3 Terminators die. Leader ship test passes (83%)

Now, the avengers charge, for simplicity sake, they all get into combat with the terminators.
Exarch swings first at I6:
3 Attacks
2 attacks hit.
2 wounds after re-rolls
No wounds caused after saves.

Normal Avengers attack.
18 attacks.
9 hit.
3 wounds.
All saves passed.

Terminators swings -
2 attacks.
1 hit.
1 wound.
Saves Passed. No wounds.
Leadership test taken, succeeds.


Following combat round -
Exarch swings first at I6:
2 Attacks
2 attacks hit.
1 wound after re-rolls.
Save failed.



That first scenario favors the Avengers. The shooting did a burst of damage, and they were able to clean up. But what if the terminators go the charge? (Just as likely given the difficulty of charging from a Serpent)

Exarch swings first at I6:
2 Attacks
2 attacks hit.
1 wounds after re-rolls
Save Passed. No wounds.

Normal Avengers attack.
9 attacks.
5 hit.
3 wounds.
All saves passed.

Farseer Attack.
2 Attacks.
2 hit.
2 wound.
All Saves Passed. No Wounds.

Terminator Attacks -
10 attacks.
5 miss.
5 wound.
2 wounds after re-rolls. Leadership test taken (67% chance of failure)

Second turn of combat -
Exarch swings first at I6:
2 Attacks
2 attacks hit.
1 wound.
One save fails. 1 wound.

Normal Avengers attack.
7 attacks.
3 hit.
2 Wounds after re-rolls
One save fails. 1 wound.

Farseer Attack.
2 Attacks.
2 hit.
2 wound.
Saves Passed. No wounds.

Terminator Attacks -
3 attacks.
2 hit.
2 wound.
One save failed. 1 wound.
Leadership test - Success



Point is, even on favorable terms, the best you can do with dire avengers in close combat is play clean up or tie up. If your goal is to tie up enemy terminators, all is good and dandy (just hope your opponent is stupid and doesn't brings in more units themselves.)

However, all this really proves in my mind, is that bladestorming from a distance >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> melee avengers.

The formatting of your post makes it very hard to follow, but I can tell you from experience that kitting out Avengers for combat is a waste of time (you have to be insane to willingly assault TH/SS Terminators with a Farseer under any circumstances, all TH/SS is also the most common load out btw). Due to the prevalence of cover Avengers are only marginally effective as a shooting unit anyway, Tri Flamer Guardians beat them for damage output (both with shooting and in assault because they have more attacks). With Defend and a Shimmershield they maybe tie up a Deathstar for a single round but still lose no matter what you do because their damage output is pathetic. This also assumes that you have Doom and Fortune up (i.e best possible situation for you). Even with this assault based loadout you still can't take on standard MEQ units unless they have been significantly weakened first. In short they are a total waste of time in a competitive environment.

I've thrown a power blob at dire avengers once that were upgraded with the 5++ and the ability that makes your opponent's attacks at -1, and it was SURPRISINGLY obnoxious getting through them all. I eventually beat them, but it took way too long for what my plans were.

I could see that as being rather useful against THSS terminators, actually. With the above kit, you're talking about only 1 attack per terminator that only hit half the time and then are screened out 1/3 of the time by an invul save on a unit that can pack in a fair number of models. 5 termies kill an average of 1 avenger per combat phase out of a squad of 8 or 10? In the very least, you're tarpitting them for the rest of the game.

Powerguy wrote:The formatting of your post makes it very hard to follow, but I can tell you from experience that kitting out Avengers for combat is a waste of time (you have to be insane to willingly assault TH/SS Terminators with a Farseer under any circumstances, all TH/SS is also the most common load out btw). Due to the prevalence of cover Avengers are only marginally effective as a shooting unit anyway, Tri Flamer Guardians beat them for damage output (both with shooting and in assault because they have more attacks). With Defend and a Shimmershield they maybe tie up a Deathstar for a single round but still lose no matter what you do because their damage output is pathetic. This also assumes that you have Doom and Fortune up (i.e best possible situation for you). Even with this assault based loadout you still can't take on standard MEQ units unless they have been significantly weakened first. In short they are a total waste of time in a competitive environment.

lol, sorry. I should have taken out most of the spam and just put the end results of each combat, in fact, I'll probably do that right after this post.

As for what you said, I completely agree. Melee avengers are just a complete and total waste of points. At best, they do alright. At worst, you've waste a tank, a troop choice, and an HQ. Last night, when the argument was presented in the other thread, I tested things out. One of the units I tested it against was Abaddon and a squad of 4 khorne marked terminators with dual lightning claws... Needless to say, they didn't even last a full round. By the end of Chaos turn 1 of combat, it was over, and only one of the terminators were dead. Granted, that unit is about as melee as you get, but if it can't stall out against them, what hope do you have against say... paladins with draigo? Or some other deathstar?

While not being an Eldar player, and not being a loyalist player, I'd still like to point out that there are few situations I believe where a unit of Terminators would be 5 strong still before the charge against the DA. Even if those are the only two units on the board.

Avenger-SC have an 18" range, correct? That means that there is at least one turn of shooting, along with Bladestorm, before the charge, assuming the Terminators are not embarked until the turn they charge (this is in a vacuum, correct?). So, we still have to include all of the wounds caused by that one round of shooting.

Even with a Landraider/Stormraven transport, with the (typical) Eldar list you'd have to include Bright Lances and possibly sacrificial Fire Dragons to take it out.

somerandomdude wrote:While not being an Eldar player, and not being a loyalist player, I'd still like to point out that there are few situations I believe where a unit of Terminators would be 5 strong still before the charge against the DA. Even if those are the only two units on the board.

Avenger-SC have an 18" range, correct? That means that there is at least one turn of shooting, along with Bladestorm, before the charge, assuming the Terminators are not embarked until the turn they charge (this is in a vacuum, correct?). So, we still have to include all of the wounds caused by that one round of shooting.

Even with a Landraider/Stormraven transport, with the (typical) Eldar list you'd have to include Bright Lances and possibly sacrificial Fire Dragons to take it out.

Yes indeed. That is why I posted two scenarios. One, with favor of the Eldar (So the land raider was destroyed, and the avengers got their full shooting before going into combat, and having their serpent in a position where they actually COULD assault the terminators after disembarking).
The second scenario was the opposite. The wave serpent had been destroyed, and the terminators charged out of their land raider.

Obviously both scenarios are still flawed, as neither take into effect cover (which might I add, in the scenario where the Eldar assaulted, would be likely and with the absence of grenades, puts them at further disadvantage).

This is merely a number crunch. Nothing ever goes as you will hope and dice don't follow statistics. Like I said, this is purely theory

I fell like it's pretty common knowledge that dire avengers are bad in combat though. Personally I prefer to use storm guardians. They aren't as fast or strong as aspect warriors, but make up for it with 3 flamers and 2 attacks each.
But that's just me.

Amanax wrote:So to not further derail another thread, I have created this one.

On the topic of melee units, it was suggested that Dire Avengers be used to take on TH / SS terminators.

It was also suggested to run the numbers, this is what I come up with.

10x Dire Avengers (177)
- Exarch
- - Storm Shield / Power Weapon
- - Defend
- - Bladestorm

Farseer (130)
-Spirit Stones
- Doom
- Fortune

Total - 307

Ooh, 3++ invl saves on DA? Where can I buy this uprgade?

Its a shimmershield which grants 5++ save only in combat, but I think you took that into account in your calculations right?

Lord Rogukiel wrote:

Ooh, 3++ invl saves on DA? Where can I buy this uprgade?

FAQ update did it:

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1620225a_Dark_Angels_Version_1_1.pdf

DA as in dire avengers ....

It's for the stormshields, just when I cut away a bunch of the stuff, names got cut out in front. -.-

However, all this really proves in my mind, is that bladestorming from a distance >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> melee avengers.

That's my experience too.
However, once I fielded a CSM force with 10 Termies (2 pf's).
While they were hoofing towards the centre, they got charged by 10 Dire Avengers with a Fortuneseer.
I was really impressed by the performance of the DA's as with
defend and shimmershield they were really a tough nut to crack,
able to hold up my Termies for a while.

Amanax wrote:Yes indeed. That is why I posted two scenarios.

And I was talking about a third, where the DA don't assault, and accept a charge (as a bubblewrap unit) after Bladestorming with Defend/Shimmershield. It is much more likely to happen, and still fairly nice for the DA. You don't have to worry about charging into terrain (in fact, if that is the option, then it would of course be better to just wait and accept a charge).

Who would charge two terminators into a squad of ten avengers without support? O_o

And that third scenario would almost never happen. The avengers would just be torn apart by shooting if left out of their transport for a full turn... The reason I presented the scenarios as I did was they are the two most likely to happen without outside influence of another unit (aside from the destruction of the transport)

I personallu just use them for blasting units off objectives, but there's a guy in my area who uses them to assault with, same exarch but he takes defend, never seen them used, but i imaginne they'd only really be thrown into combat if the unit is either terrible at combat, or quite weakened, if they're within assault range after shooting i say go for it, since anything that close will probably be charging them next turn, i suppose it doesn't matter between defend and plasma grenades(not 100% sure if this is in their wargear)