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So I understand that Vendettas and Valkyries have the "Scouts" special rule. The issue is that the passengers, ie: a Company Command Squad, does *not* have the "Scouts" special rule.

Can a Vendetta or Valkyrie with embarked non-"Scouts" troops perform a Scout move as normal? Are there any restrictions?


Thanks.

ETA: Yes, I did a search. Yes, I read the thread. It's 5 months old, and perhaps an FAQ has come out since then which may change things.

It should be able to, yeah. The vehicle they are in, ie the thing doing the scout move, has 'scouts'. They are just along for the ride.

-cgmckenzie

cgmckenzie wrote:It should be able to, yeah. The vehicle they are in, ie the thing doing the scout move, has 'scouts'. They are just along for the ride.

-cgmckenzie

Thanks man. I was reading an anti-Mech Vets tactica where a guy was claiming that IG players are pulling fast ones on people with this trick, and that it's illegal. Guess I'll chalk it up to more internet BS.

DakkaDakka wrote:

To be fair, you read the Scout rules and the outflank rules in the BRB (pg 76 and 94 respectivily), it says nothing about vehicles with Outflank giving it to units it carries. Those rules state only that a troop /with/ an Outflanking ability can give it to a dedicated transport.

It says nothing in the FAQ either, so really people are just assuming it does unless they have a page number or can point to a printed rule.

You can not use Drop pods as an example, as they have special rules /saying/ what they can do in thier discription. The Vendettas only say they can Outflank.

If you want to take outflanking troops in Vendettas, take Al'Rahem and put troops from his platoon in them. So the arguement of 'well they have the vehicle but no troops that you can put in it so thus it /must/ be able to outflank with Vets' just does not fly.

Trust me, I want to use Vendettas with outflanking Vets to, but till someone shows me something written in a FAQ or in a codex or in the base rules you can't do it.

BlkTom wrote:To be fair, you read the Scout rules and the outflank rules in the BRB (pg 76 and 94 respectivily), it says nothing about vehicles with Outflank giving it to units it carries. Those rules state only that a troop /with/ an Outflanking ability can give it to a dedicated transport.

It says nothing in the FAQ either, so really people are just assuming it does unless they have a page number or can point to a printed rule.

You can not use Drop pods as an example, as they have special rules /saying/ what they can do in thier discription. The Vendettas only say they can Outflank.

If you want to take outflanking troops in Vendettas, take Al'Rahem and put troops from his platoon in them. So the arguement of 'well they have the vehicle but no troops that you can put in it so thus it /must/ be able to outflank with Vets' just does not fly.

Trust me, I want to use Vendettas with outflanking Vets to, but till someone shows me something written in a FAQ or in a codex or in the base rules you can't do it.

Is there a precendence for other transport vehicles with Scouts that can carry units without the Scouts USR? How about Deep Strike?

For example, a Deep Striking Blood Angels' Land Raider can carry units that do not have the Deep Strike USR. Can it only come in from reserves this way if it's carrying units with the Deep Strike USR or is there a special rule for BA Raiders that permits it?

Deepstriking transports is indeed the Precedent; generally the passengers do not have deep strike, yet the vehicle may deep strike with them aboard(Drop pods being the most obvious examplle, the only time any unit can be embarked upon them is when they are deepstriking that squad onto the table, they then must immediately disembark, and no-one may embark the pod on table).

Outflanking/Scouts works in exactly the same manner: if the vehicle has it on it's own, then the vehicle may do so and the unit is taken for a ride. If the vehicle is a DT and the Squad has either rule; then the vehicle gains the rule.

Infiltrate on a squad with a DT only allows the DT to Outflank. But if a vehicle happened to have Infiltrate(even a DT) on it's own, then it could Infiltrate with a squad that does not have Infiltrate via the same logical extension.

I decided to email custumer service and just ask. Will post anything that comes from it.

BlkTom - do you require your Infantry to be able to move 12", before you will allow a vehicle to move 12" with a unit of infantry embarked?

This is the exact same thing: the unit is NOT arriving via Outflank / Scout, it is arriving embarked on a vehicle, and the VEHICLE has arrived via Outflank / Scout.

BlkTom wrote:I decided to email custumer service and just ask. Will post anything that comes from it.

Don't bother--the mail room guy's opinion on rules debates carries no more weight than yours or mine. Refer to the Tenets of YMDC: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/253892.page.

its worth noting that if a vehicle can scout and the squad onboard does not have the scout USR that the squad may not disembark during the scout move but must stay embarked.

I do see some players try and disembark during the scout move with a squad that does not have scout. as disembarking is part of the squads movement and it is not allowed to move on its own during scout it may not disembark.

All I can say is that I have not found any rules that say 'vehicles with Scout gives any carried troops Scout', or anything close to that.

I have found rules that say units with Scout can give it to decicated transports. People bring up Drop Pods, but I will point out they are taken as dedicated transports. The common link is the dedicated transport part. I can actually buy a dedicated transport can give it's special rules (deep strike for Drop pods for example) to a carried unit.

But a Vendetta is not a dedicated transport. There are units in the list that can deep strike (storm troopers with Airborn Assault) and outflank (Al'Rahem, Penal troops, Creed's ability). So there are plenty of options that allow you to put troops with the right Reserve rule in the Vendetta to use it's reserve rules (Deep Strike or Outflank) with units.

BlkTom wrote:All I can say is that I have not found any rules that say 'vehicles with Scout gives any carried troops Scout', or anything close to that.

I have found rules that say units with Scout can give it to decicated transports. People bring up Drop Pods, but I will point out they are taken as dedicated transports. The common link is the dedicated transport part. I can actually buy a dedicated transport can give it's special rules (deep strike for Drop pods for example) to a carried unit.

But a Vendetta is not a dedicated transport. There are units in the list that can deep strike (storm troopers with Airborn Assault) and outflank (Al'Rahem, Penal troops, Creed's ability). So there are plenty of options that allow you to put troops with the right Reserve rule in the Vendetta to use it's reserve rules (Deep Strike or Outflank) with units.

Where does it say that transport vehicles with the Scouts USR can only use the Scouts USR when transporting units with the Scouts USR?

BlkTom wrote:All I can say is that I have not found any rules that say 'vehicles with Scout gives any carried troops Scout', or anything close to that.

I'm not sure why you would need that though. Are the passengers moving? No*, the vehicle is. That's why the vehicle needs Scout.

The rule that gives Scout to a dedicated transport if the unit has it is so that the unit can still get a Scout move. Without that rule, the vehicle they are embarked in would not be able to move.

*As was said above, if you are claiming that the unit inside is moving and must follow their own movement rules, then they must also only move 6".

NuggzTheNinja wrote:

BlkTom wrote:All I can say is that I have not found any rules that say 'vehicles with Scout gives any carried troops Scout', or anything close to that.

I have found rules that say units with Scout can give it to decicated transports. People bring up Drop Pods, but I will point out they are taken as dedicated transports. The common link is the dedicated transport part. I can actually buy a dedicated transport can give it's special rules (deep strike for Drop pods for example) to a carried unit.

But a Vendetta is not a dedicated transport. There are units in the list that can deep strike (storm troopers with Airborn Assault) and outflank (Al'Rahem, Penal troops, Creed's ability). So there are plenty of options that allow you to put troops with the right Reserve rule in the Vendetta to use it's reserve rules (Deep Strike or Outflank) with units.

Where does it say that transport vehicles with the Scouts USR can only use the Scouts USR when transporting units with the Scouts USR?

"If a unit with this ability is deployed inside a dedicated transport vehicle, it confires the scout ability to the transport too." pg 76 BRB

"Note that if such units are picked from the army list together with a dedicated transport, they may outflank with their transport, but if they do so they must move onto the table embarked in it. pg 94 BRB

Now... they went in to great detail in a couple of places making sure both vehicle and troops are capable of outflanking, and outflanking together. Both units thus have the Scout ability.

Where does it say a vehicle with the Scout USR gives it to any units it carries?

Having ridden in a troop transport, I can see how the vehicles rules enable things to happen that the infantry couldn't otherwise do. Most likely, the embarked unit is sleeping/eating/making dirty jokes while the transport is doing its thing.

Rules wise, I see no problem with it. People have mentioned earlier that if you had to follow the embarked unit's rules over that of the transport, you could only move like infantry.

-cgmckenzie

somerandomdude wrote:

BlkTom wrote:All I can say is that I have not found any rules that say 'vehicles with Scout gives any carried troops Scout', or anything close to that.

I'm not sure why you would need that though. Are the passengers moving? No*, the vehicle is. That's why the vehicle needs Scout.

The rule that gives Scout to a dedicated transport if the unit has it is so that the unit can still get a Scout move. Without that rule, the vehicle they are embarked in would not be able to move.

*As was said above, if you are claiming that the unit inside is moving and must follow their own movement rules, then they must also only move 6".

The underlined part actually gives more credence that both the unit and the vehicle need Scout, as there are limits if one or the other do not have Scout. Really, that is further cementing the rule.

BlkTom wrote:

somerandomdude wrote:

BlkTom wrote:All I can say is that I have not found any rules that say 'vehicles with Scout gives any carried troops Scout', or anything close to that.

I'm not sure why you would need that though. Are the passengers moving? No*, the vehicle is. That's why the vehicle needs Scout.

The rule that gives Scout to a dedicated transport if the unit has it is so that the unit can still get a Scout move. Without that rule, the vehicle they are embarked in would not be able to move.

*As was said above, if you are claiming that the unit inside is moving and must follow their own movement rules, then they must also only move 6".

The underlined part actually gives more credence that both the unit and the vehicle need Scout, as there are limits if one or the other do not have Scout. Really, that is further cementing the rule.

No, it's really not.

That part of my reply says that the vehicle (the model that is actually moving using the Scout rule) needs to have the Scout rule in order to use it. The reverse is not true, because the unit inside a vehicle is not restricted by its own movement rules (and only counts as moving for shooting purposes).

There are limits if only the unit embarked has the Scout rule. There are no such limits if only the vehicle does. Again, if you are going to say that the unit must follow its own rules for allowed movement, then I'm going to demand that your vehicles only move 6".

Being a dedicated transport confers no specific rules on the unit - see the exceptions.

The BRB FAQ states that units can disembark during the scout move but ONLY if they themselves have scout. This cannot happen unless transport vehicles can scout without the unit inside being required to have scout.

The argument is also: you do NOT need scout to arrive inside a scouting / outflanking vehicle, because you yourself are NOT arriving via Outflank. You are arriving embarked in a vehicle

As I said before, your argument requires that no transporting vehicle ever moves more than 6", as that is the maximum speed infantry can move - and you are placing limitations on the vehicle based on the embarked unit. These limitations are entirely a construct, they do not exist in the rules.

Not to intentionally derail the argument but...

Units arriving in a deep-striking Transport Vehicle are in fact also arriving via deep-strike(both BRB page 95, and the BRB FAQ); so A unit arriving in an outflanking transport are likely to also be arriving via outflank(when special rules interact with such).

This still does not confer either special rule(deep-striking and out flank) to the transported units, just the manner of their arrival on table is via those rules.

Not sure if a soultion has already been found, but my thoughts on this is that:
If a US air force pilot is piloting a stealth plane into a battlefield, the stealth plane will go undetected by radar, like it should be.
However, the pilot is not a master ninja, and therefore does not have radar immunity.
Does the pilot show up on radar and the vehicle not?

I think its basically the same argument. Why would the passengers eliminate the capability of the vehicle? That's like saying that putting a cannonball in a cannon eliminates its ability to shoot, imo.

KK - I thought they only "counted as" arriving via DS? And then only to ensure you cannot assault without a special rule.

I dont think it is "likely" that a unit arriving inside a vehicle that is Outflanking are themselves Outflanking - given as they had to write a specific addition to the DS rules to achieve the effect for units arriving via DS, it would in fact suggest the opposite (otherwise the argument is the rule is redundant, with no evidence for that....)

So, about the deepstriking transport.

Space Marine Codex: Land Speeder Storm. It can carry 5 scouts. And can DS.....

...

boom.. headshot. Deepstriking Also not a dedicated transport. Now.. GO!

It makes no difference whether it is dedicated or not.

THe only time dedicated transports matter, is when the unit inside is getting them to Scout or Outflank - which is provided for by a specific rule. Claiming that this implies the contra (you must have a dedicated transport to "inherit" the transports special deployment rules) is an error in logic.

BRB page p95 simply states: "In the movement phase when they arrive, these units may not move any further, other than to disembark from a deep striking transport vehicle."

The above sentence defines Transported units as, themselves, deep striking. It still only effects their ability to Assault, or move any further than the 2" disembarkation; but they do still technically arrive via deep strike(but still inside the vehicle, and thus out of range of most detrimental effects). Deep strike mishaps would be a nightmare if they were not themselves considered deep striking; all 3 mishaps would happen to the vehicle and then you would have this squad incapable of deep strike that would be some how still effected independently. You might wind up with them "Magically disembarking the destroyed/misplaced transport and whisked away to just outside the battlefield on the front lines(coming in from table edge).

The FAQ is the place where they use the dread term "count as" in the question(and the even more dreaded "un-accompanied Yes" in the answer), but as I have said before this is another example of an FAQ used to clarify something that was not overtly stated in the rules(now if only we could get an FAQ with a Clear Movement direction, amiright?).

For a Unit arriving Via Outflank from a Transport vehicle where the unit itself does not have access to that rule; the unit is still arriving via outflank(thanks be to the transport). Parasite of Mortex(Tyranids) helps to confirm this with the rules for " The Sarge is acting Strangely..." wherein it describes what to do if the unit arrives via outflank inside a transport.

However none of that requires the unit to have outflank- they havent performed the action themselves, the vehicle has dont it "for" them.

Well, yeah, I said that in my earlier post:

Kommissar Kel wrote:This still does not confer either special rule(deep-striking and out flank) to the transported units, just the manner of their arrival on table is via those rules.

Not entirely the same pont - you said it doesnt confer the rule, I was saying they dont need to have the rule.

Same way you dont need to have infantry able to move 12" for a transport vehicle carrying infantry to be able to move 12", you dont need the unit to be able to outflank in order to arrive inside an outflaning vehicle.

RavienCoromana wrote: Not sure if a soultion has already been found, but my thoughts on this is that:
If a US air force pilot is piloting a stealth plane into a battlefield, the stealth plane will go undetected by radar, like it should be.
However, the pilot is not a master ninja, and therefore does not have radar immunity.
Does the pilot show up on radar and the vehicle not?

There is only one reasonable conclusion that can be gleaned from this. All US Air Force Pilots are, in fact, master ninjas.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Not entirely the same pont - you said it doesnt confer the rule, I was saying they dont need to have the rule.

Same way you dont need to have infantry able to move 12" for a transport vehicle carrying infantry to be able to move 12", you dont need the unit to be able to outflank in order to arrive inside an outflaning vehicle.

Eh, mostly the same point:
The rules allow for the transported models to enter in the same manner as the transport they are riding in.
The rules do not confer those special rules to the transported unit.
Ipso facto; the unit is not required to have the rule in order to be deployed via it while riding in a vehicle that has the rule.

I just didn't bother stating the logical conclusion(if it deploys via the rule but is never granted the rule it must not need the rule, in this given situation).