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Hi all.

I have posted this also on warseer, but want to know your point of view. While I was playing my last game I had some rules problem with this situation:

1. At the start of my turn, I have an haemonculus and a witch unit inside a raider.
2. During my movement phase, I move the raider and the witches get out of it. The haemonculus remains inside.
(Just to clarify: my witches are within 2' of the raider - with the haemonculus inside - at the end of my movement phase)
3.Then, on the shooting phase, the witches run.
(Still within 2' of the raider). (To clarify again, witches have fleet, haemonculus don't)
4. Then I tried to assault.

My opponent says I couldn't because at the end of my movement phase, my witches were within 2' of my haemon (who was inside the raider, and I was within 2' of the raider), so I lose my fleet USR.

What you guys think?

--------------------------------
Warseer post:
http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=306415

Technically correct. However noone plays it that way....

I believe the BRB states that a unit can leave the transport, and an attached IC can stay inside (and vice versa) to disjoin them. Though I am at work and don't have a book handy.

I would say he was wrong.

Technically he is correct, sort of

While the IC is within 2" of the unit at the end of the movement phase, he is joined to the unit. You measure to the hull in order to see where the IC is, meaning he is in coherency and therefore joined

Easiest way out of this is to have the haemie disembark from the other side of the vehicle.

See Julio, exactly my point. I wasnt trying to be a jerkoff about it as I myself play DE. I just wanted to explain to you the reason why you cant fleet if the haem remains inside. No hard feelings bro Its an honest misconseption.

Thanks again Nosferatu.

Mmm this is confusing for me. If nosferatu is correct, RAW if you shoot at my wych unit I could be able to allocate wounds on my haemon as long as he is joined to this unit. And what happens i get assaulted?

I don't see how this is even remotely technically correct. That is the cheesiest thing I've read in awhile. You opponent was wrong.

Independent characters embarking and disembarking
If an independent character (or even more than one) and a unit are both embarked in the same vehicle, they are automatically joined, just as if the character was within 2" of the unit. If either an independent character or a unit is already in a vehicle, the other may join them by embarking too (assuming, of course, that there is enough space left).

The unit and the independent characters may, in a later Movement phase, disembark together as a single unit. They can also disembark separately by either the unit or the characters disembarking while the others remain onboard or even disembarking at the same time using different access points (but they must end their move more than 2" away from each other). If the vehicle has yet to move, both unit and characters can disembark together and in coherency, but then the characters can leave the unit as they move, as normal.

Obviously the reverse is true...

Under your opponent's assumption if any infantry types come within a Character in a transport they are auto joined! Then what happens if that unit flees? Does the IC get out of the transport and fall back with the unit?

I would have told my opponent, "OK, well my IC is in the furthest corner of the transport and so they are not within 2" of each other!" Sheesh!

Also...

The entire unit must be embarked on a transport if any part of it is - a unit may never be partially embarked or spread across multiple transport vehicles.

If the IC is still part of the unit then you would be breaking this rule. And that would mean that any time a IC is left in a transport the diembarking unit would have to move/run outside the 2" range of the hull.
Hope this helps you with your opponent next time. Good Luck!

Look at the rule on the top of page 67 BRB. It's the second paragraph of Independent character embarking and disembarking. the first sentence says the unit and IC can disembark together in the movement phase as a single unit. It then goes on to say, "They can also disembark separately by either the unit or the characters disembarking while the others remain onboard, or even disembarking at the same time using different access points (but they must end their move more than 2" away from each other)."

So in the OP question, once the wyches disembarked from the transpot and the haemonculus was inside, they were no longer joined together as a unit, they were 2 separate unit, one on foot outside the tfansprt and the other on the transport.

To back this up, look at the first part of the same rule on page 67, if an IC and a unit are both embarked in the same vehicle they are automatically joined. And if either and IC or a unit is already embarked in a transport, the other can join them simply by embarking. If you had a haemonculus in a raider, and a unit of wyches moves within 2" of the raider, but does not embark, are the wyches joined with the haemonculus? No, they wouldn't join unless and until they embarked onto the raider. Simply being within 2" of the raider does not automatically join the wyches with the IC.

Conversly, when either the wych or the haemonculus disembarks and the other remains onboard, they are no longer joined and are now separate unit, one on foot and the other embarked on a transport.

time wizard wrote:(but they must end their move more than 2" away from each other)."

Thats the key sentence & is why it is believed that you cannot fleet.



Also...

And that would mean that any time a IC is left in a transport the diembarking unit would have to move/run outside the 2" range of the hull.
Hope this helps you with your opponent next time. Good Luck!

Incorrect, you disembark WITHIN 2" from vehicle thus cannot be more than 2" by the end of the move phase. So yes you must RUN during your shooting phase therefore not being able to fleet because it was still 2' from any part of the hull in the begining of the phase.

Note that I also play DE & use such unit combinations.

WeeDawgNYC wrote:

time wizard wrote:(but they must end their move more than 2" away from each other)."

Thats the key sentence & is why it is believed that you cannot fleet.



Also...

And that would mean that any time a IC is left in a transport the diembarking unit would have to move/run outside the 2" range of the hull.
Hope this helps you with your opponent next time. Good Luck!

Incorrect, you disembark WITHIN 2" from vehicle thus cannot be more than 2" by the end of the move phase. So yes you must RUN during your shooting phase therefore not being able to fleet because it was still 2' from any part of the hull in the begining of the phase.

Note that I also play DE & use such unit combinations.

You're not paying attention to the part before that - "or even disembarking at the same time using different access points (but they must end their move more than 2" away from each other)"

ANd that still does not override the IC coherency rules - it just tells you they can disembark separate from each other. And, at the end of the phase you check and find they are still within 2" of eachother

WeeDawgNYC wrote:

time wizard wrote:(but they must end their move more than 2" away from each other)."

Thats the key sentence & is why it is believed that you cannot fleet.

That's a key part of the sentence. the sentence says, "...or even disembarking at the same time using different access points (but they must end their move more than 2" away from each other)."
This means that either;
the IC and the unit both disembark within 2" of each other and are still joined or,
the IC and the unit both disembark but end their disembarkation move more than 2" away from each other and are no longer joined or,
the unit disembarks and the IC remains onboard and they are now separate or,
the IC disembarks and the unit remains onboard and they are now separate.

This was also backed up with a FAQ that addressed how an IC can disembark after a vehicle moved. According to the IC rules, the IC would have to be more than 2" away from the vehicle, but if the vehicle moved the IC could not move after disembarking so could not be more than 2" away, so the FAQ said:
Q: If an Independent Character is unable to end his move
over 2” away from a friendly unit that he cannot join, for
example he has exited a vehicle after it has moved, can
he be placed? (p48)
A: Yes, simply place him as far away from the unit(s) that
he cannot join as he is allowed to go.

Now I know this is starting to run off topic, but backs up the rules that either an IC or a unit that were embarked in a transport may disembark from the transport separately from the other unit.
The key word is separately.
Once one disembarks and the other remains embarked, they are separate units from that point onward.

nosferatu1001 wrote:ANd that still does not override the IC coherency rules - it just tells you they can disembark separate from each other. And, at the end of the phase you check and find they are still within 2" of eachother

No, I'm pretty sure that last bit is specific only to the part talking about disembarking via different access points.

You can't measure coherency with a unit that is partially on the board and coherency is measured only between models that are actually on the board. And, as has been pointed out, you can't have a unit partially in a transport anyway so when the wyches or whatever leave the transport and the IC stays in it, they're not joined anymore.

Also, it looks like time wizard beat me to the long diatribe.

The wyches are a seperate unit as soon as they disembark,so the haemon inside is not a part of the unit anymore,allowing the fleet move.

nosferatu1001 wrote:ANd that still does not override the IC coherency rules - it just tells you they can disembark separate from each other. And, at the end of the phase you check and find they are still within 2" of eachother

So if I have an archon in a raider, and I move a squad of 6 wyches 1" away from the raider, but do not embark them on the raider, the wyches and the archon are now joined because the wyches are within 2" of the raider's hull and are therefore within coherency of the embarked archon?

So, you're arguing that because the unit is within 2" of the vehicle, that the IC is still attached and the unit loses Fleet?

If you shot at the Wyches, could the owner put wounds on that "attached" IC? Of course not. They're no longer a "unit". "Units" can't be simultaneously embarked and disembarked.

Time Wizard has it right. This seems like a clear case of TFG-ery.

I think i got it:

BRB:
"The entire unit must be embarked on a transport if any part of it is - a unit may never be partially embarked or spread across multiple transport vehicles."

FAQ:
Q: If an Independent Character is unable to end his move
over 2” away from a friendly unit that he cannot join, for
example he has exited a vehicle after it has moved, can
he be placed? (p48)
A: Yes, simply place him as far away from the unit(s) that
he cannot join as he is allowed to go


So the question is: if you disembark the IC after the transport has moved, then he is unable to end his move over 2” away from a friendly unit that he cannot join, because "a unit may never be partially embarked or spread across multiple transport vehicles". So we can apply the FAQ and say you simply place him as far away from the unit(s) that he cannot join as he is allowed to go.

Disembarking the unit instead the IC will lead us to the same situation.

I hope that makes sense.

My Wyches are more than 2" away from the Haemi when they disembark. They get out off the front slope of my Raiders while the Haemi goes to the rear and stands by the pilot. If they get out on the left side he goes to the right side. Problem solved.

This might make it easier.
Raider with haemonculous and wych squad embarked.
Movement phase, wyche squad disembarks and moves no further, haemonculous remains onboard and raider does not move.
Shooting phase, who can shoot at what?
The raider can shoot at a target.
The wyches can fire at a different unit.
The haemonculous can fire at a different target than the raider, passengers and transports can fire at different targets.
The haemonculous can also fire at a different target than the wyches, they are now separate units, unless someone is saying that he has to fire at the same target as the wyches?

So the wyches could choose intead of firing to run, and since they have the fleet usr, they can then assault.

Which is why I said "technically" - the FAQ is not errata and doesnt change the rules.

The IC rules are fairly silly anyway - you have to stay 2" away from any vehicle or single model unit, in theory. Noone plays that way, or at least noone I've played against

nosferatu1001 wrote:ANd that still does not override the IC coherency rules - it just tells you they can disembark separate from each other. And, at the end of the phase you check and find they are still within 2" of eachother

The rule on page 67 says the IC and the unit that are joined together in a transport have several options in later Movement phases.

1-The can disembark together as a single unit.

2- They can disembark separately and so would no longer be joined together;

2a-By either the unit or the IC disembarking and the other remaining embarked -or-

2b-By both disembarking at the same time but they must end their move more than 2" away from each other.

nos, I don't think that the IC rules override the transport rules (i.e. a unit cannot be partially embarked on a transport).

Using that particular rule, the IC and the Wych unit are separate units, so the Wyches wouldn't lose their Fleet...

Unless you think the rules allow an IC to be joined/attached but not count as part of the unit?

Xarian wrote:nos, I don't think that the IC rules override the transport rules (i.e. a unit cannot be partially embarked on a transport).

Using that particular rule, the IC and the Wych unit are separate units, so the Wyches wouldn't lose their Fleet...

Unless you think the rules allow an IC to be joined/attached but not count as part of the unit?

And the plot thickens, good point chap.

WeeDawgNYC wrote:So yes you must RUN during your shooting phase therefore not being able to fleet because it was still 2' from any part of the hull in the begining of the phase.

You need to reread the rules for ICs as it is anyway. ICs and units can only become separate during the movement phase. By your logic, he wouldn't be able to run the Wyches away from the Raider, because they'd be joined until the next movement phase.

If I have a vehicle with an IC in it, and I move it next to a different unit that has not moved yet, are they joined now? Does that mean I can't move the unit during the phase? Or if an IC with a unit moves within 2" or another unit, can I declare that the IC is joined with the second one?

Also, unit coherency cares about the individual models of the unit. The rules for measuring range from a vehicle's hull applies to a unit embarked in it, not a model (a completely different term as far as the rules are concerned) or a unit that is partially embarked (which has already been stated as impossible within the rules). There are no rules for measuring coherency between the models of a given unit when part of that unit is embarked and another part isn't because it can't happen.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Which is why I said "technically" - the FAQ is not errata and doesnt change the rules.

The IC rules are fairly silly anyway - you have to stay 2" away from any vehicle or single model unit, in theory. Noone plays that way, or at least noone I've played against

Which would mean they could never embark or disembark on their own. LoL

JBW wrote:]

The entire unit must be embarked on a transport if any part of it is - a unit may never be partially embarked or spread across multiple transport vehicles.

Really, this is all you need to say. An IC inside the vehicle is out of coherency with a unit outside the vehicle.

Exceot it isnt. See page 67

nosferatu1001 wrote:Exceot it isnt. See page 67

Which brings us to 'Yes, well done, you've found a hole in the rules'...

I think it should be fairly safe to assume that a unit [i]shouldn't be considered still joined to an IC when one of them is in a transport and the other isn't... it just causes too many issues.

So along with the whole IC not being able to move finish movement within 2" of a vehicle thing, this is a situation where the actual rules will just need to be ignored in favour of what actually works... which is what I would guess most players are doing already without even realising it.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Which is why I said "technically" - the FAQ is not errata .

For purposes of this forum, it is. See Tenet #2.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Exceot it isnt. See page 67

I see nothing on page 67 that says an IC in a transport within 2" of a unit is in coherency with and joined to the unit. Care to cite me the rule please?

The FAQ I cited earlier was needed to clarify the RAW ruling that would disallow an IC to disembark from a transport that moved.
Page 48 says if an IC cannot join a unit it must remain more that 2" away from it at the end of the movement phase.
Page 48 also says that an IC cannot join a vehicle squadron or a vehicle.
So at the end of it's movement phase, an IC must be more than 2" away from a vehicle.
Page 67 says that if a transport moved, the passengers may disembark within 2" but may not move any further in the movement phase.
So if an IC disembarked from a transport that moved it would break the rule on page 48.
The FAQ fixed that.

Now the second point. Nowhere in the rules on page 48 is a unit allowed to join an IC.
But in the rules on the bottom of page 67, if a unit embarks into a transport that has an IC already embarked, they are automatically joined.

You also say that you are going to trace coherency to the IC in the transport.
So if I have a unit with the fleet USR, and I move that unit within 2" of a transport that has an IC embarked, then that unit loses the fleet USR because they are now in coherency with the IC?

I have cited a few times where the rule on page 67 says clearly that an IC and a unit in a transport can disembark together or can disembark separately.
How can you say that if they disembark separately that they are still joined because you are giong to trace coherency to them?

Suppose a fearless IC disembarks from a transport and the unit that is still embarked does not have fearless?
Does the IC lose the fearless rule because it is still in coherency with the non fearless unit so according to you they are still joined?

They rules for IC embarking and disembarking and how that causes them to be joined to other units (including other ICs) are separate from the normal IC rules on page 48 for a reason. They do not rely on the rules on page 48 to work, they stand apart and are exceptions to the general rules regarding ICs joining and leaving units.