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do we realy need to roll for wounds ?

I just cant see the point of rolling to hit AND then having to roll for wounds

Of the hundreds of games i have played , board and pc , a hit is a hit is a hit

while i understand why you might want an expensive unit to be damaged in stages i cant realy see the point of rolling for wounds apart from a " dice smoothing , hit reducing effect"
this is achieved in other games by simply making it harder to hit in the first place.

There seems to be a great deal of rolling for nothing in warhammer 40k , A geekoid / Games workshop desire to roll 30 dice in 5 stages when rolling a couple in 2 stages would suffice
AND YIELD THE SAME OUTCOME


someone please explain to me why warhammer 40k finds itself the spot on the domino in a universe where concise & efficient combat systems utterly dominate

rant over , lol

KISS ( keep it simple ) should be the name of the game ,

While sometimes rolling to wound might seem a bit strange, (a lascannon which doesnt kill a gretchin, for example) its mostly made for game balancing/building. Without roll to wound (Which I tried once) the game is much too short and boring. Plus, It makes the game more balanced, for example a heavy weapon being able to hurt a carnifex more easily than a small and sucky lasgun.

Bullets do funny things. Sometimes they zip right through without hitting anything vital. Sometimes they shatter bones and splatter vital organs. Sometimes they ricochet off of bones and hit vital organs. You really never know what's going to happen until you roll the dice.

you can still keep the defender interested and rolling for luck and hapen stance by the following rule

1 All weapons Always hit so long as they are in range of the target. ( No dice required )


2 defender rolls for each unit of his that has been attacked

to live you must roll higher than the weapon attacking you

now we want all sorts of variations on this dont we, or the game would be very flat to play

so depending on your "special" a number is added to the number on the dice thrown

i am a grunt nothing unit at point blank range = add 0
as above under cover add 1
as above leader x is on the board add another 1
as above but my green skin is flame proof and attcking weapon is flamer add another 1

etc etc etc

simple !



Psychology / Fun aspect

the attacker points just , the defenders rolls and prays

this gives the attacker a wonderful and hassle free way to point an shoot , pun intended (physically and mentally uncluttered)

this gives the defender the " bring it on cricket batter stance" rattling the two dice and blowing into his cupped hands..."oh dark lord of dice "

the defender has the joy of letting the attacker linger over the double six thrown ... the attacker gets to see the pain in the defenders eyes as the defender snatches up the snakes eyes in disgust


The system i have described , is mind numbingly simply in comparison to GW horrendous lash up yet it allows infinite complexity...AND ALLDONE with a single throw of a just two 6 sided sided die

ill give one final example to underline my point

an entire army grunts attacking a titan

attacker declares simultaneous attack mode
i have 10 grunts biting his ankles = 10 points
i have 1 super tank attacking at 10 with titan piercing Armour my tank attack now doubled to 20
i have 1 sniper firing through a bush thats partly obscuring the titan , my attack of 4 is halved to 2
i have 1 champion attacking at 5 with a+1 bloodlust bonus which kicks in only during simul attacks
etc etc army 50 attack points

= 10 grunts 20 tank 2 sniper 6 champion 50 etc points
= 88 attack points

the defender rolls 2 die and multiplies that by his Titans defense multiplier eg 10 and then adds a base figure of say 10*
( *immune to all fire from a single unit attack hitting at 10 or ten grunts simul attacking at 1)

so even rolling snakes eyes for your titan = (2 x 10) + 10 = 30 defense points. To avoid the hit in this particular case of attack of 88 dice adding up to 8 would be required. The +10 base topping it up to a 90..thus a save.







NOW just think about this ,.... ive just fairly and engagingly resolved a huge barrage of fire by rolling just two die



above points taken and somewhat agreed upon .......this my 2 bags of gold answer

( add as many fluff and counter fluff rolls as you like to either side , and for whatever reason you like BUT the out come of your system will be near identical to mine in all instances +/- an insignificant % point or two)

can you show me 10 Space Marines with a Missile Launcher firing at 30 Orks in light cover?

I don't quite understand.

NuggzTheNinja wrote:Bullets do funny things. Sometimes they zip right through without hitting anything vital. Sometimes they shatter bones and splatter vital organs. Sometimes they ricochet off of bones and hit vital organs. You really never know what's going to happen until you roll the dice.

well put!

I belive the OP is saying the NUMBER of dice rolls is too many.
Because the dice are used in a DETEMINISTIC way.
Eg
The FIXED value X,any dice roll result over value X= pass, any dice roll result under value X =fail.

So a SM has EXCACTLY the same chance to hit ANY type of target ANYWHERE in weapon range.
An SM armed with a Missile launcher has the same chance to hit a Chaos land raider 2" away as he does a single remining grot 42" away.Which is counter intuitive.

The 'to wound' and 'to'save rolls' mechanics are then relied on to try to put the variatiuon back into the results.
Which just abstracts the process and results in detachment from real world tactics, and put the game purley into 'using the rules to your advantage.'

IF we simply copied real world interaction , we could arrive at more detailed interations , with LESS dice rolling and less abstraction.

Stage ONE.
Find them.(Aquisition)
Using a SINGLE dice (D10 or D20) roll over your intended targets Stealth Value to positivley identify them and bring weapons to bear.)

If we use a D20 we can get 5% granulation between a units stealth value.(This gives us a BASIC 4X more detail than the fixed value on a D6 to hit.)

We can then use simple modifiers to cover the other variables .Eg
Add to targets steath value..
Target in cover +1
Target over 36" away +1
Target using stealth equipment.+1

Add to attackers Aquisition roll.
Attacker stationary+1
Attacker within 18" of intended target.+1
Attacker using targeting equipment+1

The attacker makes an Aquisition roll, if they fail to aquire the target the attacking unit take NO further action.
(No 'targeting reastrictions required' as the variance in aquisition values make sense, and players simply decide how mutch risk they wan to take.).

This straightforward mechanic covers all elements of target and attacker disposition (dependant on wht modifiers we use.)
And so thier is a LOT of detail covered with ONE dice roll.

Stage TWO
Fix them.(Open fire and hope to supress-immobilise.)
If we simply determine a units ability to shoot by saying its effective range is the range its members WILL HIT AT.
EG
A poor shot with a lazer rifle will only have an effective range of 18"(Conscript.)
An average shot with a laser rifle may have an effective range of 24"(Guardsman)
An exellent shot may have an effective range of 30" with the same weapon.

We smply list the weapons effects when combined with the users ability.

Weapons are developed to inflict damage .
Armour is developed to prevent -reduce damage.

Weapon damage - armour value = save roll required.

So roll 1 DICE to spot target,(dependant on target size, distanace and disposition).

(Hits AUTOMATICALY determined by weapon and user skill.)

Roll to save based on comparative weapon and armour values.

This simple example showsl far less dice rolling , with FAR more detail achicved in a more intuitive way.
(Which allows room for intergrated supression mechanics and far more morale, command and control detail too!)

I got to go now, Dentists apointment...

I can't really see anything wrong with rolling to wound. I think it makes sense. If you rolling to wound was removed things wouldn't make sense that much. You shoot a guardsman with a bolter and hit so manage to damage it. You shoot a carnifex with a bolter and hit and manage to damage it although the fex way more resistant to a bolter round than a guardsman. Makes more sense to me to compare the strength of the weapon to the toughness of the target.

What are these games in which a hit is a hit? Most combat video games, both FPS and RTS, have health bars and individual weapons do varying amounts of damage. That's your equivalent of the wound roll. And which board games simulate combat? Risk? Most tabletop wargames have a wound roll of some sort.

I like rolling the large numbers of dice, its why i play this game. If i wanted to roll less dice and have faster games Id start playing herclix again. LEAVE MY GAME ALONE!
But seriously, a few of the reasons people I know play this game are: A. It makes for long interesting games that can have some very fun results. EX. a marine runs up and rapid fires a grot and fails to kill him. Next turn the grot shoots him in the face and drops the marine. That just makes for a funny time.
B. The more dice rolls you have in a game the better your chances are for rolling to an average or a statistic. I used to play heroclix and with the low number of dice rolls the average just doesnt play out in a single game.

Short answer to the OPs question.
NO.

Long asnwer.
If you deduct the defence value of the target from the damage value of the weapon, to get the chance of saving the hit.
You replace the UNECISSARY to wound roll with a direct and proportional save roll.(By moving away from using dice in a deterministic way.)

Play the game that makes you happiest.(If you cant find one you like out of the 100s available , modify one or develop your own.)

The man that developed the rules for 40k, Rick Priestly.Called the game mechanics of 40k '...old fashioned and clunky...'
Its like the abstracted minature proportions, you like it or you dont.

Play the game that makes you happiest.(If you cant find one you like out of the 100s available , modify one or develop your own.)

So you suggest we remove the entire concept of strength and toughness from the game?

Melissia wrote:So you suggest we remove the entire concept of strength and toughness from the game?

Yes. They should roll equal or above their initiative or die.

Too much rolling. Let's remove initiative as well.

Hell, let's just have units moving around on the tabletop. If you shout "bang" convincingly enough, your choice of target dies.

Because if your play a large army like orks or nids, then rolling huge handfuls of dice is so awesome!

Indeed it is.

I mean, who doesn't want to roll 60 dice at the same time?

It was a hilarious little event

You could technically get 120 Strength 4 attacks out of a Boyz mob of 30 with extra hand weapons on the charge

Kravox wrote:You could technically get 120 Strength 4 attacks out of a Boyz mob of 30 with extra hand weapons on the charge

Holey Crap! Now what if we didn't roll to wound!?

Nobody would die!

Is this a serious question, lol?

So, you want to eliminate "wounding" from the game and a hit is a hit, eh? So a S3 lasgun is EXACTLY the same as a S10 railgun.

Your position sounds AWESOME and extremely well-analyzed.

Wounding is a necessary part, but if you explained your two step system properly there might be a change of heart

Skarboy wrote:Is this a serious question, lol?

So, you want to eliminate "wounding" from the game and a hit is a hit, eh? So a S3 lasgun is EXACTLY the same as a S10 railgun.

Your position sounds AWESOME and extremely well-analyzed.

Okay, seriously now, the point is that adjusting "to hit" to a greater extent doesn't really make a difference. The way everyone's said it, it seems as though causing wounds is only determined by attacker's stats. Hello, there's a reason that models have a Toughness and Armour Save, and that's to make it a consideration when choosing models and pricing them in terms of points.

Plus, it's very logical, even if not exactly like IRL. It would mean that the game is way too biased toward shooting, and Ork Boyz would never ever assault again.

There isn't enough of a degree of differentiation between the different rolls on a D6, and we DON'T all suddenly want to start playing with D20s.

I think the OP's question is just a lack of experience in game mechanics. Nearly every game out there is geared to having the player control one guy or a unit of guys at most. GW has strayed away from the 150hp character in favor of small armies. So rather than rolling to see how much damage a hit generates it is simplified to whether or not enough damage is generate to outright kill an average soldier. So in short, yes every well thought out game has a way to measure the damage of a hit. GW's version is Boolean vs scaling.

Could you even imagine trying to keep track of the Hp's of a 180 boy ork mob?

And it's far batter than Risk etc. because you can make it look like one Boy represents one Boy, and not an entire battalion.

Thus, unit special rules and in fact the entire gaming system fall into place form there


Automatically Appended Next Post:

CageUF wrote:
Could you even imagine trying to keep track of the Hp's of a 180 boy ork mob?

And max 6 wounds means you can just use a D6 next to the model!

I love how the entire system is based around the D6...

Sam__theRelentless wrote:And it's far batter than Risk etc. because you can make it look like one Boy represents one Boy, and not an entire battalion.

Thus, unit special rules and in fact the entire gaming system fall into place form there


Automatically Appended Next Post:

CageUF wrote:
Could you even imagine trying to keep track of the Hp's of a 180 boy ork mob?

And max 6 wounds means you can just use a D6 next to the model!

I love how the entire system is based around the D6...

Just because it's a D6 system doesn't mean that six is the max number.

Sam__theRelentless wrote:Hell, let's just have units moving around on the tabletop. If you shout "bang" convincingly enough, your choice of target dies.

That would be an awesome way to play if you were drinking!

a 2d6 based table top war game? Oh. you mean Battletech.

I love that game.

The OP's description of shooting sounds more complicated then the current version.

Ill try to explain an alternative method.

A models ability to withstand damage , (armour AND toughness are combined together in to ONE value).Armour/Resistance to damage.(A.R.)
ALL models are given an apropriate AR value, from 1(wet vest save), to 20 (Warlord Titan front armour).

All weapon have a Damage Value.(DV)From 5 to 15.(An alternative name for the strenght characteristic.)

Simply deduct the AR value from the DV to determine the save roll required.

EG Ork Boy AR 2 is hit by a Bolt gun DV 7.
7-2=5 therfore the Ork boy saves on a 5+

A CSM AR 4 is hit by a bolt gun DV7.
7-4=3. therfore the CSM saves on a 3+

This gives natural invunerability to some units vs some weapons , and auto wound to some models from some weapons.

ONLY specialist 'Anti tank' weapons get a bonus to Armour penetration ,(similar to the penetration bonus as currently used in 40k)
Specialised anti Infantry weapons get a bonus to supression .
Other specialised weapons can have area of effect-ignore cover ,(similar to current 40k rules.)


So rather than having to use 3 seperate sytems ,AP vs SV, Inv vs special rules and AV vs S.
We could use just ONE system for all unit types.
(Damage tables for vehicles and MCs , supression for other units.)