Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

ChrisWWII.
OK then,
If it takes 40k 95 pages of rules to cover , what everyone agrees is a simple game.(40k)

Why is it that Firefly can cover ALL land warfare of WWII in historical detail , including air support and enginnering , counter battery fire and radio range finding, all theatres of war and weather conditions .
Offer over 600 detailed unit entries and 45 army lists .
ALL contaned in a 100 page rule book.(Including a solid PV allocation method too!)

Complication does not mean they are hard to understand , but there is a lot of seperate elements to achive the simple result.

Complex means there is ALOT of results/posibilities.

I am proposing the rules SHOULD BE simple and the game play SHOULD BE complex.(Like chess.)

Where as 40k the game play is simple ,(Little options in game.)
And it uses far too many rules to achive it.(Complicated rules.)

Why use AS vs AP, AND AV vs str AND Inv vs special ,AND FNP,Instant death , Eternal Warrior, etc.

When you could use one simple damage resolution to cover ALL unit interaction?

40k is not hard to play.
It just wastes far too many pages on unecissary rules that stop the game play from reaching its full potential.

This isn't exactly hard to learn though ... the interaction of ap and armor saves, feel no pain and its exclusions, etc. are so elementary to struggle with it suggests you should ebay your army and get on with your life. 'One chart to rule them all' would be a giant pain in the ass, its far easier to remember the few rules you need at that very moment then reference an almanac anytime anything happens.

Many rules issues occur from ...

A) Players trying to damn hard too squeeze every ounce of advantage out of a game
B) Codex vs. Rulebook issues where the guy who doesn't have the codex feels boned, but really - every codex 'cheats within the rules' and complaining about it is a waste of time
C) Players who are convinced they are correct and make you show page number and sentence to get something done your way.

B (and most basic rules questions) is just part of the game. A and C are social issues and a sign of bad sportsmanship, not bad rule design - these same guys would try to work the system in any environment.

My name for the A+C people is D****BAGS

A good example of how someone could get hit but not wounded is a soldier being shot in the foot.

They're probably not going to die.

I have never said the rules of 40k were difficult to understand.

Just that because they use the least apropriate game mechnaics there are too many rules , compared to the SIMPLE game play.

GOOD rules have complex gameplay and straightforward rules.(Chess)

BAD rules have complicated rules (lots of them) and simple game play.(40k)

Why not simply use ONE method of resolution for each element of game play?

Less rules to learn= more time to play = good!

Lanrak wrote:I have never said the rules of 40k were difficult to understand.

Just that because they use the least apropriate game mechnaics there are too many rules , compared to the SIMPLE game play.

GOOD rules have complex gameplay and straightforward rules.(Chess)

BAD rules have complicated rules (lots of them) and simple game play.(40k)

Why not simply use ONE method of resolution for each element of game play?

Less rules to learn= more time to play = good!

Eeeh, the problem is that the 40k rules ARE easy to learn.

Movement = 6". Unless you are a vehicle, or a bike, or you are Fast.

Done!

etc. etc. There are many exceptions which people do bang their heads over, and I'm assuming that's what your biggest problem is with.

It seems OP has not played WHFB, play it and learn the rules. After that you wont complain about 40k's rules...

In realistic terms i agree with you but in game terms, it keeps things balanced, like a mega long range squad with a BS of 5 would be massacering left and right. So its a sacrifice for relisticness for balence....ness. Oh and btw dont you find it weird that if you roll to would and acomplish it, how come they get a armor save if i just blew a hole through his chest?

The point is that the events of "shooting dood x" do not happen in the order that the dice are rolled. It should be like that, oh it should, but it isn't. Damn.

You do realize it doesn't in any way affect the chances if you swop your rolls for wounds and saves around. However, this is near impossible in the current ruleset because of the numerous ways in which the base rule has been modified, especially with regards to re-rolls and special power weapons.

Hi Sam_theRelentless.

As you used movement as an example.

Using a movement value, most good rule sets cover ALL unit movement with 2 pages of clear concise rules.
That are just as easy to learn.

Currrently 40k uses 14 pages of rules spread over several sections of the rule book to cover movement.

Thefore 40k uses between 3 and 7 times as many pages of written rules to explain each element of gameplay!

Great games use the most apropriate game mechanics , that allow ONE resolution methos to cover ALL units.

This delivers maximum gameplay , with the minimum amount of rules .

Using the most apropriater game mechnaics 40k could have far more complex game play , with FEWER rules !

Who wouldnt want that?

We do. It's just not possible to change it a little bit at a time like everyone else wants to. To do it effectively, one has to overhaul the entire thing, which is why I think your approach is goping in the right direction. As opposed to "do we really need to roll for wounds?" and suchlike.

I recently played a couple of starter games of Infinity and found their shooting stage to be quite good but I don't think it would en masse ala 30 unit of Orkz.