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HQ: 180
Haemonculus x3, Liquifier x3 (180)

TROOPS: 948
Wyches x8, Haywire Grenades, Hekatrix, Agonizer, Raider w/Shock Prow (191)
Wyches x8, Haywire Grenades, Hekatrix, Agonizer, Raider w/Shock Prow (191)
Wyches x8, Haywire Grenades, Hekatrix, Agonizer, Raider w/Shock Prow (191)
Warriors x5, Blaster, Venom w/Dual Cannons (125)
Warriors x5, Blaster, Venom w/Dual Cannons (125)
Warriors x5, Blaster, Venom w/Dual Cannons (125)

ELITES: 524
True Born x4, Blasters x4, Venom w/Dual Cannons, Trophies (178)
True Born x4, Blasters x4, Venom w/Dual Cannons (173)
True Born x4, Blasters x4, Venom w/Dual Cannons (173)

HEAVY: 345
Ravager w/Flickers (115)
Ravager w/Flickers (115)
Ravager w/Flickers (115)

TOTAL: 1997

As an Ork player I can tell you that pure Horde Ork will be unlikely as Green Tide really is terrible this high a point level, so many easy counters exist that its usually a Kan Wall build for horde play, often with a lot of Lootas.

Seguing from that, Lootas are the one thing to watch for as they have enough AC shots to down a vehicle every turn.

From the DE perspective though I like this, lots of Dark Light weapons on the table, lots of maneurvabily units. Nicely equipped Haemonculi, I'm not 100% sold on the Casket but it is one of the better Arcane Wargear options, Crucible and Shattershard are my favourite.

Why Raiders for the TB and not Venoms?

This is very close to what I run at 2000, I fully approve of the list as I have found it to be very sturdy as a TAC list and a top contender at tournaments.

How's the casket working for you? I don't bring one and generally consider it a less trustworthy Liquifier.

ever considered giving the trueborn Darklances vs blasters. That would allow you to stay back and give you more target options.

4 blasters vs 1 dark lance?

A single dark light shot isn't a guranteed damage/destroyed.

gardeth wrote:ever considered giving the trueborn Darklances vs blasters. That would allow you to stay back and give you more target options.

It actually gives you less target options in my opinion.

36" range heavy
vs.
24" range assault.

With the lances you have to pick your start zone smartly, and have to have targets in your lof. With the ability to move 6" a turn and still fire, the Raider allows a lot of adjustment as the battle goes, which lets you focus fire where it's needed. It also helps you make DoA and other such lists cry into their little metal nappies a lot easier.


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Eyclonus wrote:4 blasters vs 1 dark lance?

Trueborn can take 2 Lances.

I never really paid attention to the heavy weapon options on Trueborn, I see it that while the range is handy, the numbers and the ability to move and shoot helps much more. I can't see anything good about taking the unit a) without a transport and b) unable to shoot some of its bling guns when constantly moving.

I mean sure if they had a cap of 20 models... With the weapon options doubling at 20.... I think 8 blasters and 4 lances would result in such salivating keyboards the world over would short out.

Why Raiders for the TB and not Venoms?

This has been a point of contention for me. I really love Venoms, and no doubt have a use for them. They make great vehicles to maul Long Fangs and Lootas while your other stuff busies itself with other things. But, my dice aren't always forgiving in the DL department and I find I wish I had more DL's on the board almost every game. Those odd Raider lances have helped me in this way. If my meta ever changes a little I might swap them for Venoms. But, as it stands, I need MOAR LANCES!!!!

How's the casket working for you? I don't bring one and generally consider it a less trustworthy Liquifier.

The Casket is about as random as you can get. Its up or down, really, without sarcasm. I'd gladly toss it for just about anything else. In fact, I was poking around in the arcane wargear section and I came across something I never really looked at; the Archangel of Pain. My wyches are politely asking for a buff in CC, and this could potentially be useful. But seeing as units get to make a LD check to negate effects I'm torn on paying the extra 5 points for it. But, the Casket is a point of concern for people. I walk up too your pimped out sternguard squad and open up a Can of. . . uhhhh. . .Casket of Whoop@ss and find out whats inside. Sometimes, its an adorable, fluffy, and slightly miffed kitten. Other times, its a horde of starving Sasquatch that maul your dudes and eats their brains. Random scares people, thus it helps.

ever considered giving the trueborn Darklances vs blasters. That would allow you to stay back and give you more target options.

Never. Never ever, infact. That would spell disaster for this list. Honestly, that's what I believe. The way I run the list demands that nasty things get crammed down my enemies throat ASAP. Wyches move Flat Out the first turn, getting a 4+ cover save, and getting themselves into position for turn two assaulting. My True Born scoot up 12", deploy for the maximum allowed, and blast transports, hoping to open up a few cans so that the wyches have something to charge the next turn. The True Born are more than just a suicide unit IMO. They give the enemy something juicy, terrifying, and extremely hazardous to focus on. But, then they look at how close my wyches are, and then they look at their own units and ponder. Then they see that I've still got Splinter Cannons and Ravagers and, as we all know, "Ravager, yes, thats DE anti-tank. . .I must shoot that. . .hmmmmm. . .But, the True Born are right in front of me. . .Oh, the Wyches are 1 turn away from assaulting me. . eeeeeek." Basically, they screw target prioritization out the hoo hah. Many people have an extremely difficult time correctly choosing what to shoot. Frankly, it would be a tough call for me as well. . .wait. . .Nah. . .I know what I would shoot first But, that's from my perspective, knowing what I play. If the TB were in back with lances, people would focus fire on the Wyches because they're the direct threat, and the list would crumble. TB with blasters breaks that up a bit. You throw in a few cover and flicker saves and people can start to go ape-sh$t about your army. DE really can use psychological warfare in reality, on the table top. Get your enemy off balance and watch the mistakes start to roll in. It's these mistakes you must capitalize on in order to win. If my wyches can get into CC, they tar pit the game and, at that point, its about over. People really don't understand how tough wyches are, they're like tzeentch daemons with FNP. . .ummmm. . .yes please.

Ugh...I know first-hand the effectiveness of this list. I will be trying to shatter your record though

I think the list is pretty tight and there isn't much room for change. The only other thing I'd consider is giving the TB Venoms instead of Raiders, but I can see why you chose the Raiders over the Venoms, since you want as much DL weaponry as possible. However, the venoms serve to make the TB much more dual-purpose...in that you can debark move a ful 12" and target two different things if needed, or just move 6" and get two different targets with the passengers and the vehicle. This makes the unit much more versatile and ends up being cheaper because you save on having to purchase the FF on the Raider. You'd only be losing 3 lances, and gaining 36 poison shots.

Also, I would seriously consider Shock Prows on your Raiders. You can do a lot with splitting up forces with it and generally screwing with your opponent's formations, or even just suicide the Raider moving flat out into another vehicle, possibly doing some damage.

See you on the battlefield.

@Erudog

The effective cost difference between a Venom and a Raider is 5 points (because the Venom is taking +1 S. Cannon and the Raider is taking FFs)

So, it's a 5 point difference, and the only debate is whether or not you think you need more anti-mech or anti-infantry. Every other "advantage" you listed for the Venom is applicable to the Raider as far as movement, and dual targeting. It's a 5 point debate about army need.

I take Raiders instead of Venoms fairly often depending on what need I think I have.

Thor665 wrote:@Erudog

The effective cost difference between a Venom and a Raider is 5 points (because the Venom is taking +1 S. Cannon and the Raider is taking FFs)

So, it's a 5 point difference, and the only debate is whether or not you think you need more anti-mech or anti-infantry. Every other "advantage" you listed for the Venom is applicable to the Raider as far as movement, and dual targeting. It's a 5 point debate about army need.

I take Raiders instead of Venoms fairly often depending on what need I think I have.

What I meant to say about the dual targetting is that the TB Blasters serve the purpose of shooting at TDA/Vehicles, where the Venoms shoot at infantry/MC's. What I believe the Venom/TB package does is give the effectively single unit (that is the TB inside the Venom) a versatile role in a single package. That is, antitank/antiinfanty.

But yeah, I see your point. It's only 5 points, but he can use those points to give those Wych Raiders SP's or something. It's really a personal preference/meta thing.

Well, if I take the casket off I believe I can afford shock prows on all Wyche raiders. Not having my book on hand, I believe 3 shock prows comes out too 15 points. Then, maybe throw on a random grisly trophy or something just to help with morale checks. . .assuming the raider hasn't blown sky high by that point.

shoot transport with tb

shoot squad with venom

assault squad with wyches should they remain

repeat

TBH, you need Sathy pants at 2000 points. Makes you go first a whole lot often, getting you that alpha-strike.

Ooooo. . .My list is getting more traffic! Hello, all.

@clidefr0g
Yes. Basically, yes. It works very well. But, generally, the Trueborn blast transports for Wyches, while the Venoms tag things like MC's, Long Fangs, Devs, snipers, termis, and so on. The Wyches are in the list to provide an expendable, yet entirely irritating, speed bump for the enemy while I scoot around the back and grab objectives and pick off tastier units at my leisure.

@woodbok
TBH, you don't need him at 2k, or ever for that matter, but he is undoubtedly useful and one of my favorite HQ's in the book just because he's dirt cheap and grants that +1. Also, he does surprisingly well in CC, even when by himself, assuming you direct him into the right unit. I actually do add him into my 2.5k list with a maxed out beast unit. Not even I can argue that he rocks. I don't worry about it to much. If I get first, great, if not, then I'll think of something to get around it the army is definitely fast even to come in from reserves and mess stuff up. That's DE for you.

[

ever considered giving the trueborn Darklances vs blasters. That would allow you to stay back and give you more target options.

Never. Never ever, infact. That would spell disaster for this list. Honestly, that's what I believe. The way I run the list demands that nasty things get crammed down my enemies throat ASAP. Wyches move Flat Out the first turn, getting a 4+ cover save, and getting themselves into position for turn two assaulting. My True Born scoot up 12", deploy for the maximum allowed, and blast transports, hoping to open up a few cans so that the wyches have something to charge the next turn. The True Born are more than just a suicide unit IMO. They give the enemy something juicy, terrifying, and extremely hazardous to focus on. But, then they look at how close my wyches are, and then they look at their own units and ponder. Then they see that I've still got Splinter Cannons and Ravagers and, as we all know, "Ravager, yes, thats DE anti-tank. . .I must shoot that. . .hmmmmm. . .But, the True Born are right in front of me. . .Oh, the Wyches are 1 turn away from assaulting me. . eeeeeek." Basically, they screw target prioritization out the hoo hah. Many people have an extremely difficult time correctly choosing what to shoot. Frankly, it would be a tough call for me as well. . .wait. . .Nah. . .I know what I would shoot first But, that's from my perspective, knowing what I play. If the TB were in back with lances, people would focus fire on the Wyches because they're the direct threat, and the list would crumble. TB with blasters breaks that up a bit. You throw in a few cover and flicker saves and people can start to go ape-sh$t about your army. DE really can use psychological warfare in reality, on the table top. Get your enemy off balance and watch the mistakes start to roll in. It's these mistakes you must capitalize on in order to win. If my wyches can get into CC, they tar pit the game and, at that point, its about over. People really don't understand how tough wyches are, they're like tzeentch daemons with FNP. . .ummmm. . .yes please.

Meh. Lootas die easy to Splinter Cannon spam. Even if I dont kill the unit they will most likely have to take a morale test at LD7. . .yay. . .decent chance they'll run. After that I use my speed to pick my targets, and my Wyches to hold things back when required.


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That's not say I won't lose some stuff in the process.

A new edit to my list. After playing 15 games with the crucible and other such trinkets, I've found them to be rather useless in almost every game. In total, they've killed ~<10 models. . .not worth the cost. I've also found that I wish my Wyches wounded more often, if only to keep the combat resolution about even, I hate when they run off. In this case the transition was quite easy. With the points saved from the haemonculi's rather useless trinkets, I've been able to give all wyche units a razor flail. . .yay. . .

I would drop some of the Raider upgrades in favor of more Blasterborn.

By dropping all of the Aethersails, Grisly Trophies, Shock Prow, and Razor Flails you net 65 points. That would net you 2 extra Blasterborn and 11 points which you can redistribute as Raider upgrade as you see fit.

What about adding the duke to make sure those combat drugs become more reliant and he is not a bad fighter on his own...

I think this list is perfectly fine as it is now.

Nice list.
BTW, is it at all useful to

A: take 10 man warrior squads in raiders

B: take wracks with this kind of list

C: have reavers or scourges at this point level

D: Take warrior squads built to be somewhat effective in CC

@ warmastersolon
To all of the above, no. It's tough to squeeze those types of things in when you know you require a heavy blast/lance presence and the tb are second best only to ravagers in that regard. Warriors die in cc and are to expensive to equip as such, because they are a shooty unit, not so stabby. Venoms and five mans works best because range and fire power without taking any additional guys you dont really want. Don't get me wrong, I love reavers and scourges, and they can be quite effective, just not so much in my list.

@ashenshugar
After my experiences with aethersails, I will never give them up. Even coming in off my table edge with aethersails I get an easy turn two assault. For wyches, whose raider us about to be blown up, this is enourmously beneficial. Honesty, IMO, the best upgrade for Wyche raiders, and it's so cheap!


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@valek
Ive been thinking about him a bit. You may have a point. I must ponder.

if you drop all the crap on your transports you could up your blasters to 4men strong!

@clidefr0g
You do know that if I were to do as I suggest, and strip the items from my vehicle, that comes out to a mere 35 points. That's not even enough to buy 2 trueblasters.

i was assuming you would know where to pull the rest of the points from your army, but if youd like my suggestion i suggest you drop a haemy or a wych from each squad, but the wych rout leaves you 1 pt over. My basic thought is you should try and figure out a way to get 4 blasters per or at least in 2 of them if you can.

What do you guys think of this. I've worked in some suggestions and like it quite a bit. . .

HQ: 225
The Baron (105)
Haemonculus x2, Liquifier x2 (120)

TROOPS: 761
Wyches x9, Haywire Grenades, Hekatrix, Poison Blade, Raider w/Flickers (193)
Wyches x9, Haywire Grenades, Hekatrix, Poison Blade, Raider w/Flickers (193)
Warriors x5, Blaster, Venom w/Dual Cannons (125)
Warriors x5, Blaster, Venom w/Dual Cannons (125)
Warriors x5, Blaster, Venom w/Dual Cannons (125)

ELITES: 453
True Born x3, Raider w/Flickers (151)
True Born x3, Raider w/Flickers (151)
True Born x3, Raider w/Flickers (151)

FAST: 216
Beastmaster x4, Kymerae x9, Razorwing x4 (216)

HEAVY: 345
Ravager w/Flickers (115)
Ravager w/Flickers (115)
Ravager w/Flickers (115)

TOTAL: 2000

It looks good. I would consider dropping the 5th warrior squad to make the Beastmasters stronger and Agonisers on the Wyches. I know you had a bad experience with Agonisers the last time you had them, but that shouldn't effect your judgement with them.

No, my history with agonizers has been extremely poor. There's not a single game theyve done well for me. My experience with them can be summed up like this "omfg, really?". Besides, I just want the wyches to sit in combat and buy time for the beast unit to come up and crush them.


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Though, I played a game with a fiend yesterday, and consistently allocated high strength wounds to him to keep other stuff alive. I would like to squeeze him in there, but I dont know where to get those 52 extra points.