Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Howdy Dakka folks.
I wrote a letter to GW a couple of weeks ago basically going over the issues that have been raised on Dakka regarding finecast and pricing.Im not going to go into the whole thing as if you haven't been under a rock for the last month you will already know whats been making forums explode in rage,apathy and trolling.I had no idea that i would get a response but credit to GW i recieved a letter saying they were sorry i felt the way i do but in the opinion of GW the price rise is justified.the letter said that
" the manufacturing process is very labour intensive requires chemicals to be mixed in exact quantities to produce the resin,flexible silicon moulds whose lifespan is considerably shorter than those used for metal casting,and a much higher level of quality control given the potential for error.In other words it is a manufacturers nighmare,which is why no one has ever attempted to use it for detailed miniatures in any sort of quantities.
However,it does produce a much better miniature.Which is why we have spent the last two years working on the production process to find a way of doing it consistently well for the sort of quantities GW sells.We think we have just about resolved all the issues and that is why we chose to launch Citadel Finecast with over 100 products last week.
Given the quality improvement and the investment we have put into the process,we believe the price increase is justified and i hope you will agree.Nonetheless i respect your decision and leave it to you to judge.I hope though that i have reassured you that we were not trying to exploit anyone,quite the reverse.We we trying to give customers what they want.The best quality Warhammer,40K and Lord of the Ringsminiatures we can make."

I still remain sceptical but i was supprised to recieve a reply.My son had also written to GW and he too got a reply basically the same as my letter only worded differently.
Anyone else get a reply from GW or am i special


Automatically Appended Next Post:
no one interested?

So, it wasn't broken but they spontaneously decided to fix it anyway...

Feckin liars.

Yeah I got a few replies, but they all seem to be from templates. They accused me of swearing at them in one e-mail, even though I didnt, I wasnt even rude, it was probably from a template made for all the nerd rage they are getting

MeanGreenStompa wrote:So, it wasn't broken but they spontaneously decided to fix it anyway...

Feckin liars.

Not that Finecast is a great advancement or even great yet, but...

If we never tried to make things better just because they 'aren't broken', we'd still be using outhouses and riding horses around.

pretre wrote:

MeanGreenStompa wrote:So, it wasn't broken but they spontaneously decided to fix it anyway...

Feckin liars.

Not that Finecast is a great advancement or even great yet, but...

If we never tried to make things better just because they 'aren't broken', we'd still be using outhouses and riding horses around.

Point being that the shift to resin is cost based.

This dross about 'improvement' is a fetid lie.

heh. you said fetid. heh.

Point being that the shift to resin is cost based.

This dross about 'improvement' is a fetid lie.

Is it impossible to have change that is both money-saving and an improvement in quality then?

quite honestly although I'm not ecstatic about the price increases, I don't really hold much affection for metal miniatures. The same rather subjective arguments about metal being much superior to resin were made when lead was removed from the alloys. Woe, woe, woe, then everyone gets used to it and moves on.

Sometimes its better not to say anything. They should have employed this statement.

Like i said i was suprised to even get a response and even more suprised my lad got one too.

Hey at least it was a response!

Has anyone made a direct comparison of the GW and Mantic 'plastic-resin' casts? Is it the same material? If so what are Mantic doing right that GW are doing so wrong in regard to costing and quality control for this material?

From everything I have read, they're transitioning from a material that is more expensive and that is subject to large price volatility (metal) to one that has a higher fixed cost but lower material cost.

Metal prices have been rising sharply. Even the holy Mantic has had to raise the prices on their metals as a result (http://www.manticblog.com/?p=3645). If GW sees this trend as ongoing, it makes sense to take the hit and avoid the continual cost of metal, even though they may need to replace molds more often and pay more people to do the casting. Looks like a lesser of two evils.

Alternatively they could have transitioned to plastic.

High initial investment, followed by rock bottom run-on costs.

But no. It was considered better to drop expensive metal in favour of high cost resin.

Those are really awesome models I'm not buying because of the high price.

(To be fair to GW, I gave up after last year's price rise.)

There are actually significant differences in what can be cast in plastic injection molds and what can be cast in traditional metal (and now finecast, it seems) molds. Technical stuff about undercuts and the like. Sculptors learn to work with these limits.

There is no way to take a model that was sculpted for metal molds and work it into a plastic injection mold, you'd need to redesign it from the ground up. As these models tend to be ones with lower volume (I've got one Lucius, and 100 chaos marines, for example), the combined costs of the plastic molds and the complete redesign of the figures as opposed to just redoing the molds makes that transition unlikely. Metal and/or finecast will probably remain the more economically viable approach for lower volume individual models.

GW are supposed to be the Rolls Royce of model soldiers. They should redesign the models from the ground up. We're paying a Rolls Royce price.

Bandai manage better for less in their Gundam kits. Slide moulds, multi-colour plastic, polythene moving parts -- it's amazing what they can do for less than the cost of a GW kit.

Truth to tell, GW have only in the past two years got past the level of quality and technology invented by Frog in the mid 1950s for injection moulding, who were the world's first manufacturer of polystyrene kits.

Redbeard wrote:Metal prices have been rising sharply. Even the holy Mantic has had to raise the prices on their metals as a result (http://www.manticblog.com/?p=3645).

And they were honest about it. They explained that production costs were going up, so their product lines would have to as well. And they apologised for the inconvenience. Heresy did the same. Iron Wind Miniatures did the same. There are others who took this route as well. GW, on the other hand, switched to a cheaper material to save them money, told us it was the greatest thing since sliced bread, and then raised the prices anyway.

I've said it before - but most people are more willing to accept bad news if you're honest about it. Sugar-coating it, or, in GW's case, simply omitting the bad and inventing marketing crap to use as a smoke screen only fosters suspicion and ill-will.

Redbeard wrote:Metal prices have been rising sharply. Even the holy Mantic has had to raise the prices on their metals as a result (http://www.manticblog.com/?p=3645). If GW sees this trend as ongoing, it makes sense to take the hit and avoid the continual cost of metal, even though they may need to replace molds more often and pay more people to do the casting.

I'm talking specifically about Mantic's resin-plastic which like-for-like is half the cost of their metal models while like-for-like GW's cost more.

Am i the only one who things that it is odd, that the letter pretty much says:" Ok we changed the material, its more expensive in money and working hours, there also a lot of quality issues involved, but we did it to produce high quality models."

Uhm....well .....they did that in the first place, so why change the material, considering that from the description it seems to be a whole lot worse?

Perhaps im just reading it wrong, but its strange to start the explanation by telling the reader, that resin is worse to work with and not giving no explanation, why they changed it.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Redbeard wrote:Metal prices have been rising sharply. Even the holy Mantic has had to raise the prices on their metals as a result (http://www.manticblog.com/?p=3645).

And they were honest about it. They explained that production costs were going up, so their product lines would have to as well. And they apologised for the inconvenience. Heresy did the same. Iron Wind Miniatures did the same. There are others who took this route as well. GW, on the other hand, switched to a cheaper material to save them money, told us it was the greatest thing since sliced bread, and then raised the prices anyway.

I've said it before - but most people are more willing to accept bad news if you're honest about it. Sugar-coating it, or, in GW's case, simply omitting the bad and inventing marketing crap to use as a smoke screen only fosters suspicion and ill-will.

Wow, so the last five years of GW saying they wanted to move away from metal due to a 400% rise in the cost in tin and antimony was somehow deceptive ? They've been saying it for years. Expanding on plastics, taking metal out of print.

No matter what GW said, you'd have complained about it. You're apologizing for every other company raising prices due to the increased costs of metals, and looking for ways to still through gak at GW. You've stated over and over that you hate GW. No need to throw up a smoke screen of excuseds.

I be more willing to accept your complaining about GW, if you were honest about it


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Vombaticus wrote:Am i the only one who things that it is odd, that the letter pretty much says:" Ok we changed the material, its more expensive in money and working hours, there also a lot of quality issues involved, but we did it to produce high quality models." Uhm....well .....they did that in the first place, so why change the material, considering that from the description it seems to be a whole lot worse? Perhaps im just reading it wrong, but its strange to start the explanation by telling the reader, that resin is worse to work with and not giving no explanation, why they changed it.

Metal was going to continue to go up in price. It's controlled by Indonesia and China, and there are a lot of demands for the raw material, especially in the expanding markets in Asia. The price of metal models will continue to increase. Switching to resin gives GW a chance to caste them in a raw material that isn't going to go up as fast. Molds are more expensive than the ones used for metal, and there's more labor involved. Long term, as they get the process down, quality should increase and costs decrease.

You're also going to see more and more plastic kits, with finecast filling the roll of metal models, but that role is going to be reduced over time.

Guesswork on my part, but I'm hoping that by not having to deal with the increasing metal costs, we may have less price increases than we were guaranteed to have in the future.

H.B.M.C. wrote:
I've said it before - but most people are more willing to accept bad news if you're honest about it. Sugar-coating it, or, in GW's case, simply omitting the bad and inventing marketing crap to use as a smoke screen only fosters suspicion and ill-will.

Two things. First, you're right, some companies do PR things better and some do PR things worse. But you're obviously intelligent. You know the facts. You know that costs go up, and so do prices. Ignoring, if you can, the Australia situation for a moment, is GWs real sin here how they announced a price hike or a new product line?

Secondly, I don't think that the Finecast stuff is a smokescreen for the price hike. They've had an annual price hike in June for years now. And, when they first did it, they were honest about why - rising costs and so on. They're not raising their prices significantly more than their competition, PP's most recent hikes were higher overall. Their prices overall are not higher than those for similar quality figures, as I illustrated with prices from CMON's many ranges in another thread.

So, basically, what they screwed up was the timing of the finecast launch, unfortunately to coincide with the annual repricing (and I expect they didn't consider the Finecast launch to be tracked with the pricing changes, as the pricing changes are something that happens every June), and they didn't sugarcoat their price adjustments. Again, the reasons for price adjustments have been announced for several years now and are just part of the industry.

Ford changes their prices every year too. They don't make an announcement about how rising prices have cause the new Escort to cost more than last year's model. Instead they tout the improvements in the line. Better millage, more safety features, or whatever. It's a different philosophy of marketing, and honestly, one more befitting a company of GW's size. Mom & Pop stores apologize to their customers when prices go up. Grown-up companies figure their customers are smart enough to do price comparisons (as I've done) and market research (as I've done) and instead of apologizing for their price increases, tell you what they're doing that's new or cool this year. Apple didn't apologize for the cost of the iPad2, nor did Sony apologize for the cost of the newest DSP. Instead they told you what new features they had. I'd rather see GW model itself on those companies, rather than try to be my friend and think it their duty to apologize for the state of world markets.

To the OP.. did you get a LETTER (Physically, thru the postal service), or an EMAIL response to your letter.

I would be dang impressed if they sent you a physical statement..

porkuslime wrote:To the OP.. did you get a LETTER (Physically, thru the postal service), or an EMAIL response to your letter.

I would be dang impressed if they sent you a physical statement..

And then scan it and post it on the intrawebs for all to see.

I bet GW would regret ever doing that in today's day and age.

Redbeard wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:
I've said it before - but most people are more willing to accept bad news if you're honest about it. Sugar-coating it, or, in GW's case, simply omitting the bad and inventing marketing crap to use as a smoke screen only fosters suspicion and ill-will.

Two things. First, you're right, some companies do PR things better and some do PR things worse. But you're obviously intelligent. You know the facts. You know that costs go up, and so do prices. Ignoring, if you can, the Australia situation for a moment, is GWs real sin here how they announced a price hike or a new product line?

Secondly, I don't think that the Finecast stuff is a smokescreen for the price hike. They've had an annual price hike in June for years now. And, when they first did it, they were honest about why - rising costs and so on. They're not raising their prices significantly more than their competition, PP's most recent hikes were higher overall. Their prices overall are not higher than those for similar quality figures, as I illustrated with prices from CMON's many ranges in another thread.

So, basically, what they screwed up was the timing of the finecast launch, unfortunately to coincide with the annual repricing (and I expect they didn't consider the Finecast launch to be tracked with the pricing changes, as the pricing changes are something that happens every June), and they didn't sugarcoat their price adjustments. Again, the reasons for price adjustments have been announced for several years now and are just part of the industry.

Ford changes their prices every year too. They don't make an announcement about how rising prices have cause the new Escort to cost more than last year's model. Instead they tout the improvements in the line. Better millage, more safety features, or whatever. It's a different philosophy of marketing, and honestly, one more befitting a company of GW's size. Mom & Pop stores apologize to their customers when prices go up. Grown-up companies figure their customers are smart enough to do price comparisons (as I've done) and market research (as I've done) and instead of apologizing for their price increases, tell you what they're doing that's new or cool this year. Apple didn't apologize for the cost of the iPad2, nor did Sony apologize for the cost of the newest DSP. Instead they told you what new features they had. I'd rather see GW model itself on those companies, rather than try to be my friend and think it their duty to apologize for the state of world markets.

It was the combination- suger cookie turd.

It doesn't take that change in material as the cost increase. THEY pimped out "Finecost" as the be all end all, much the same as another company that I've heard this line of gak from. And to continually parade it around like a prize pig? Not only was it a PR nightmare, it was a collective insult. That cost increase was coming, like it or not. They already have those projected into the budget, based on the F@##up's of the industry. Remember, they already said that they took the @#$%ed up product into account with the transition. The Finecost pimp was that it was supposed to be better then metal, when all it is is an overpriced meeple.

To the OP? You and your son feel like the checks in the mail with them? Did you notice that they weren't even the least bit phased by what you told them and how strong they still stick to the party line?

Better to have not received anything from them at all.

And if Games Workshop replied with "oh you're right, we're dropping the price of everything to $1" they'd then be accused of upsetting the market, under cutting competition and trying to put others out of business.

They try to put others out of business now.

George Spiggott wrote:Has anyone made a direct comparison of the GW and Mantic 'plastic-resin' casts? Is it the same material? If so what are Mantic doing right that GW are doing so wrong in regard to costing and quality control for this material?

I can't offer a complete answer, just a few observations:

- Mantic sells much less product than GW.. as a small scale operation they are probably able to hire someone who really knows what they are doing, and have that one person (or 2 people maybe) do everything...you really need to know your stuff to produce a quality resin cast, it;s that level of expertise and extra manual labour that is not easy to scale up to mass-production.

- Mantic have stated that converting all of their metals to resin plastic is impossible, they do not have the production capacity to make it happen. So instead, over time, they are cherry-picking the 2-3 units that need it the most with cavalry being the absolute first priority.

So, I think it's mainly just down to how they run things, which is a very slow and careful approach. Note that they have only released 2 resin plastic kits so far, with a third planned for release next month.. so 3 kits compared to the 200 kits that GW churned out within a short space of time, rushed far too much and ended up with a poor result.

I do think that the GW casts will improve over time, but will not be touching their finecast range for at least a couple of years until the reviews start coming back positive.

they do care

Kilkrazy wrote:They try to put others out of business now.

No more than normal competition.

Bedsides, Killkrazy, you said above you don't buy GW products anymore so really why should you care. I am a paying customer, I'm the one that should be making a fuss

Moving away from the content of the letter I think its positive to answer by letter to the complaining customers.

As for the mantic comparison and plastic resin moves etc it really just boils down to personal experiences... Bear with me with some ugly generalizations will you?

If you are someone not used to get plastic resins or just resins from other companies outhere you may be clueless to todays industry quality standards and as such finecast quality, or lack of it, doesn't shock you as much as someone that had that experience...
So sometimes, not knowing, is better for your enjoyment

I think as long as everyone is happy with their personal way of dealing with GW then all is good... some don't know much besides GW so they are happy, others that do know what's outhere may not be so happy and finally... there's those that know things and still can make a educated choice and still prefer GW universe and miniatures regardless all... Its all good as long as you are enjoying what you do.

Me personally I like GW miniatures but will not support the finecast and I will hunt down the metals if possible... I would not feel happy to support this immense lack of respect for the sculpts and downgrade of industry standarts.

GW letter is a OK thing and I hope they will try to fix things for the better.

Kilkrazy wrote:They try to put others out of business now.

Um... Pretty sure McDonalds doesn't sit up at night going "how can we do business without harming burger king."

Their explicit goal should be growing their business and bottom line by any means necessary including putting others out of business if it suits them.

GW is not a charity working with others for the betterment of society.