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Not sure if this counts as a Video Game thread, since, while it is partially about video games, it's mostly about the comparison to Miniature Games, which I felt was more off-topic. If not, sorry about that.

I was having my dad help me playtest my Tower Defense Skirmish Game (lots learned from that, still needs alot of work...), and I ran another idea by him, which I won't bog this thread down with. What he said to me piqued my interest, and I wanted more opinions on it. He said that Miniature games aren't going to last much longer, becuase people are able to play Video Games for less money (depending) and also not have to worry about figureing out all the rules and such. You don't have to keep track of health/rules; the game does it for you.

Do you guys see Video Games replacing Miniature Games down the line? Or will there always be a place for Plastic Crack?

There is a different feel to playing a video game and painting/playing with miniatures, talking to people face to face, and getting angry and hitting each other with rules books. Online or single player you're just yelling at a phantom; you need that tactile sensation.

I have to agree with the statement above

I mean ultimately, if all you're interested in is the game itself, then sure, the ease of play with computer versions is a big plus. It's just I'm not sure that's all there is to miniature games. There's a huge social factor to sitting around with makes, sharing a few drinks, chatting about the old days and ocassionally rolling dice to see how many goblins you kill. Sitting on your computer in your study, alone, listening to your mates through headphones just isn't the same thing... even if the computer is doing the rolling for you.

And hey, more than anything else, right now boardgames are in something of a golden age, so I'd have to say industry data pretty directly supports the opposite conclusion.

Viewed as a whole miniature games are something entirely different than video games.

It might be that videogames sooner or later replace miniature games for people who are only after the pure gameplay, and gameplay alone. There are, however, plenty of things a video game can not replace regarding miniature games.

A video game can not recreate or replace the creative aspect of miniature games. Building, converting and painting are as much part of miniature games as the pure gameplay, and that´s not something video games can replace.

Annother thing to consider is the social aspect. While video games have a multiplayer experience this experience usually is a lot more distant than sitting face to face with your opponent and talking about this and that. This is imo one of the main reasons why video games did not replace board/card games yet either.

Vimes wrote:

A video game can not recreate or replace the creative aspect of miniature games. Building, converting and painting are as much part of miniature games as the pure gameplay, and that´s not something video games can replace.

Maybe they can... After all, look at Spore.

The Zoat wrote:Maybe they can... After all, look at Spore.

You think that most of the people who enjoy painting and modelling would get the same pleasure from having a collection of pixels on a screen (no matter how much creativity and individuality they showed), as having a well painted model they can hold in their hand? And that's not saying anything about how different it is to work with your hands.

Warhammer and 40k was made and grew at the height of the growth of videogames (the 80s).

The Zoat wrote:Maybe they can... After all, look at Spore.

Spore was the most disapointing game I have ever played. Perhaps even the most disapointed I have ever been. I had it on pre-order for TWO YEARS before it shipped and followed its development closely, watched all the videos etc and then was incredibly underwhelmed.

It's creative process was nothing like what I can do with models, I feel no sense of achievement or attachment to anything I make, and I can't use what I make in anything other than Spore.

Video games will do to tabletop gaming what virtual tennis has done to Wimbledon... pretty much nothing.

Spore sucked. 40k>spore.

I think if somebody produces a game that replicates the table top experience, but has the benefit of 3D graphics then you could see the death of it, or at least shrinking to a niche market.

Just think on this.

40k computer game that allows you to play like the tabletop game with the benefit of:

View the battlefield from above
Going down to model eye level
Animated hand to allow you move the models or just point and click
Animated action. Movement, CC, shooting, explosions etc
Placing scenery like a tabletop game.
Added editor that allows you to "paint" your models and make scenery

I'd go for that.

The Bloodbowl game offers all of that, but it's still not the same as on tabletop.

In fact, what it did was make me want GW to make new models based on the designs they put in the videogame (which has a more up-to-date Warhammer look compared with the minis, which compare more with 4th/5th edition Warhammer).

Good points

Now I don't have to worry about making those games and not being able to do anything with them

Wolfstan wrote:I think if somebody produces a game that replicates the table top experience, but has the benefit of 3D graphics then you could see the death of it, or at least shrinking to a niche market.

Just think on this.

40k computer game that allows you to play like the tabletop game with the benefit of:

View the battlefield from above
Going down to model eye level
Animated hand to allow you move the models or just point and click
Animated action. Movement, CC, shooting, explosions etc
Placing scenery like a tabletop game.
Added editor that allows you to "paint" your models and make scenery

I'd go for that.

This pretty much sums it up. Although I enjoy painting my armies and such, in the end my enjoyment is derived more so from the fact that I am creating a unique and cool looking army... not that I actually painted it (although working on something does make you enjoy it more). If I could still get the unique modeling wants and all of the other perks listed above, I would play the computer version. Naturally, 40k is also something social for me, so I would still want to do it in a gaming store.

Tabletop gaming is more sociable I think. Computer gaming is usually solo. You can multiplay, but often you're in different rooms or houses rather than all in a room together. I suppose that isn't the case with something like the Wii, but still it isn't quite the same thing.

And in either case some people simply like miniatures rather than looking a a screen, it's not all about money. Computer games have been around for a long time now and at a very high standard and cheaper than wargaming. Many games are under £20 if you wait a matter of weeks or months for them.

I hardly ever play computer games now, I haven't got the time. If I have an afternoon free, I'd prefer to play a table top game and get out the beer and crisps.

As a parent, I would encourage kids to play miniature games (or any other "real world" sort of game). These activities push reading, writing, mathematics & social skills - all while having a good time.

As an adult, miniature games are just a fancy way of getting out of the house and seeing people.

Computer games have their place and are fun too, but at the end of the day you are left with a dull expression and one step close to ADHD.

Daba wrote:Warhammer and 40k was made and grew at the height of the growth of videogames (the 80s).

Considering video-games have yet to reach there peak and decline I would say calling the 80's the height of video-games a stretch.

Cheesecat wrote:

Daba wrote:Warhammer and 40k was made and grew at the height of the growth of videogames (the 80s).

Considering video-games have yet to reach there peak and decline I would say calling the 80's the height of video-games a stretch.

Take into account population growth and increased viability of international markets (as opposed to only selling to US and Japan) Videogames have been in decline since around the early 90s.

Videogames are in a steep decline right now, and were only held up these recent years by the Wii and handhelds.

But pretty much anyone under 40 plays video-games these days, how could we be on a decline?

Check the sales figures over the ages, compare the PS2 to now for the short term.

Then take into account population growth. Take into account inflation and prices.

Daba wrote:Check the sales figures over the ages, compare the PS2 to now for the short term.

Then take into account population growth. Take into account inflation and prices.

I'll take your word, as I haven't really invested much time into the subject.

I love my video games, but I also really enjoy tabletop gaming. I still have to thank Relic for making the original Dawn of War, that is what got me looking into the 40k tabletop stuff in the first place.

Also, really don't think video games are in much of a decline, unless everything is in decline.

I'd play 40k again if it come out as I mentioned, but I'm a 3d CGI geek. I'd love to be able to use an editor to create custom scenery and recolour my army. Just imagine there would be no line of site arguments, go to model eye view and take a peek, job done.

Move the figures around as you would in a tabletop game, give them orders and then sit back and watch the action. Perhaps have two modes of play.

Full animation mode. After you've given your orders you see the models move into position, see the weapons fire off, animated CC action, buildings & vehicles explode etc.

Tabletop mode. Move the models like chess pieces, bit of weapon animation, model falls over if it dies (so looks like a gaming model would if it was knocked over).

40k would be a terrible video game. It wouldn't take people long to realize how legitimately crappy the rules are. To top it off, the sheer amount of time it takes to play a game of 40k is one of the key factors in people not immediately getting tired of it.

That would be like saying the model car industry is going to sink because you can buy hotwheels for cheaper. Hotwheels are cool and cheap yes, but sometimes, I really like to assemble and paint a nice model car

Cannerus_The_Unbearable wrote:40k would be a terrible video game. It wouldn't take people long to realize how legitimately crappy the rules are. To top it off, the sheer amount of time it takes to play a game of 40k is one of the key factors in people not immediately getting tired of it.

Its pretty bad that I can probably play... 15 2v2 or 3v3 games of Dawn of War 2 in the time it takes me to play 1 2v2 game of 40k.

But when you switch off your video game, you have nothing to show for all of your time spent.