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Hi Dakka,

Can a scout based outfit be competitive? I'm quite new to space marines so any feedback is greatly appreciated.

MotF, TH

Dread, 2 tl-ac
Dread, 2 tl-ac
Assault Terminators, LCs

LRR, MM, EA
Dread, 2 tl-ac
Dread, 2 tl-ac

Scouts, Sniper Rifles, Telion, ML
Scouts, Sniper Rifles, camo cloaks, ML
Scouts, Sniper Rifles, camo cloaks, ML

Scouts, bp/cb, pf, meltabombs
Scouts, bp/cb, pf, meltabombs
Scouts, bp/cb, pf, meltabombs

Land Speeder Storm, MM
Land Speeder Storm, MM
Land Speeder Storm, MM

Just a little advice? Going into my first sm game with zero experience. I'd love to hear from some veterans!

From my experiance of using scouts especially sniper scouts is that they suck. All they do is sit in 1 spot and pray to the emperor that they don't get killed. And even with master of the forge reinforceing they're cover save does not mean they're going to live long. force enough saves and 5 man squads die easilly. Have you thought about using biker scouts with teleport homers and using drop pods with mm/heavy flamer dreads. You can then use you're scout move to get them in position and have drop pods come in with no scatter. That might be a better way to go in my opinion.

Yeah really the only reason the sniper scouts are there is for the good cover missile launcher. I'll have to give drop pods a go, however, I don't think I'm convinced on them. They are in position for one turn after which the enemy will just drive out of range. I'd rather just give the dread long range guns to begin with and use the 35 points for something useful.

My list above, however. It's a no go? Admittedly, I haven't tried it yet.

If you're going to give them sniper rifles, at least give them a missile launcher. Especially in Telion's group since you can use his BS. I'd also give his squad 10 Scouts so you'll have more spare wounds.

I'd go with full 10 man squads just because they're more survivable. The drop pod idea is definitely worth a try, and you could have a small Scout Bike Squad with locater beacons infiltrating and scouting to get into position like starraptor said. You could even fill the pods with Ironclads.

This though, seems like a fun list to play. It would definitely sound kinda fluffy.

For the first playtest I am opting against drop pods. MotF is there so I can take the extra dreads. I gave him a bike and combi melta on the off chance that he can pop something, anything, really. MSU sniper scouts are there to provide the ML's and to soak up long range anti infantry fire. Going to ground should keep the casualties to a minimum while not losing much firepower. The LSS are included to add some more melta as well as provide quick reployment for any of the scout squads. The IC dreads are the main hitters. At 165 points each, yes, they are a little bloated. But I think the av13 together with the saturation should be rough to deal with. This list throws out 12 individual ML shots / turn for the first two turns. By this time the dreads will (hopefully) have closed the range. There may be a deficiency of anti av14, however, I think deployment/reployment should allow quite a few side shots. Against LR's the only option is the speeders. Does it have potential?

MotF, bike, th, combi-melta

Scouts, Sniper Rifles, Telion, ML
Scouts, Sniper Rifles, camo cloaks, ML
Scouts, Sniper Rifles, camo cloaks, ML
Scouts, Sniper Rifles, camo cloaks, ML
Scouts, Sniper Rifles, camo cloaks, ML
Scouts, Sniper Rifles, camo cloaks, ML

Land Speeder Storm, MM
Land Speeder Storm, MM
Land Speeder Storm, MM

IC Dreadnought, Seismic Hammer w/melta, DCCW w/hf, 2 HK
IC Dreadnought, Seismic Hammer w/melta, DCCW w/hf, 2 HK
IC Dreadnought, Seismic Hammer w/melta, DCCW w/hf, 2 HK
IC Dreadnought, Seismic Hammer w/melta, DCCW w/hf, 2 HK
IC Dreadnought, Seismic Hammer w/melta, DCCW w/hf, 2 HK
IC Dreadnought, Seismic Hammer w/melta, DCCW w/hf, 2 HK

I'm not going to lie to you, Sniper Rifles suck. I bought a box of scouts and got excited about the snipers. I played them in two games, and they scored like 4 wounds which were all saved, and they died to a man both games. Sniper rifles don't hit crap, it sucks that scouts have BS 3.

The 6 IC dreads would be cool to run, but they'll soak up all the fire for like 2 turns before they get close.

I'd trade in all those sniper rifles for CC scouts to ride in the storms behind the dreads to hopefully get into assault.

you desperately need some long range anti tank....but ML scouts won't cut it....maybe a conversion beamer on the MoTF, idk never used one.

anyway, hope that helps

EDIT:

a unit of devs would really help, park them in cover with 4 ML and bolster their defences, and you got yourself a nasty little unit. I really love devs....

I can't honestly advice you a massive use of scouts but in the same time I can see some use for no more than 3 units of them.

You don't need a MOTF.

Have you considered something like this?

HQ - Shrike. 195
EL - 9x Assault Terminators - 4x LC/LC - 5x TH/SS. 360
EL - Dreadnought - 2x TL Autocannons. 125
EL - Dreadnought - 2x TL Autocannons. 125
TR - 5x Scouts - Camo Cloacks - 5x Snipers. 90
TR - 5x Scouts - PF - Shotguns. 100
TR - 5x Scouts - PF - Shotguns. 100
FA - 2x Typhoons + HB. 180
FA - 2x Typhoons + HB. 180
FA - 2x Typhoons + HB. 180
HV - Predator - Autocannon - sponsons Lascannons. 120
HV - Predator - Autocannon - sponsons Lascannons. 120
HV - Predator - Autocannon - sponsons Lascannons. 120
Tot. 1995

The Termies will infiltrate with Shrike, running and hunting asap.
The 5 snipers will camp on the home obj., they really don't need the ML that is most probably going missing most of times. Consider to keep them in reserves the more you can in regular objective games. They will just need one/two movement fases to claim your home obj. if properly placed.
Remember to use your vehicles + walkers to block the more you'll can the LOS vs your camo scouts.
The 2 PF scouts units will outflank during the game, in fact you don't need them there fastly just to be shooted down.
In the meantime your termies + shrike will therorically be able to clean at least another obj on the filed supported by all the shooty line on your table side.

14x ST7 Autocannons (8 of them TL)
12x ST8/ST4-Blast Missiles
6x ST9 Lascannons

Yeah so scouts definately require some finesse I think. Got murdered in my first few games. I was trying to avoid bringing a tac squad but I don't think I can help it. I really liked the IC Dreads though I think I'm going to run with them as the core. I'm going to run this for the next couple games:

MotF, bike, conversion beamer

IC Dread, 2 HKs, Drop Pod
IC Dread, 2 HKs, Drop Pod
IC Dread, 2 HKs, Drop Pod
IC Dread, 2 HKs, Drop Pod
IC Dread, 2 HKs, Drop Pod
IC Dread, 2 HKs, Drop Pod

Tac Squad, pg, pc, Drop Pod
Scouts, PF, LSS
Scouts, PF, LSS
Scouts, Telion, ML, LSS

I've run scouts quite a bit, and the unfortunate problem you run into is that sniper weapons aren't really all that awesome against infantry. With a 50/50 chance of hitting and a 50/50 chance of wounding, odds are only a quarter of your shots will result in an actual wound. Against armored enemies, the odds then become very likely you inflict no wounds, or one if you are lucky. Telion makes up for it a bit, but not a whole lot. The only time I've really seen snipers shine is against very high toughness opponents. When the 50/50 odds of wounding are BETTER than your average troops have, then the scouts just jumped up in usefulness. I usually run them if I have 200 points to burn and not enough models to make up the difference.

Good luck though. Tell me how it works out.

With all the drop pods, I would definitely suggest rocking the scout bikers with Locator Beacon. You would likely have enough if you drop the bloat on some of your squads (like the plasma weapons on your tac squad and the LSS for Telion's group. If I remember correctly 3 scout bikes is 90 points, and the locator beacon is 35. You could also drop 1 HK off of each Ironclad, since if you place your pods right they will have no where to run and no where to hide... I really like the prospect of dropping 4 accurate ironclad dreadnoughts on first turn, just refine the list and I think it could be surprisingly effective.

never been a huge fan of scouts, but i have seen them played very effectively before, i like all of those dreadnoughts

Yeah I was considering an adaptation with the locator beacons. IIRC they are 70 pts for the scout bikes and 25 for the beacon. I wanted them to do something else too so I added a PF. I am going to try out Telion in the LSS as I really like the ability to allocate wounds dealt by him myself. Picking out hidden power claws and fists sounds mint in support of the dreads. Also he can fly to a corner and hit side armour with the BS5 ML if the situation dictates.

How about this one? 35 pts shy of 2000..

MotF, bike, conversion beamer

IC Dread, 2 HKs, Drop Pod
IC Dread, 2 HKs, Drop Pod
IC Dread, 2 HKs, Drop Pod
IC Dread, 2 HKs, Drop Pod
IC Dread, 2 HKs, Drop Pod
IC Dread, 2 HKs, Drop Pod

Scouts Bikes, pf, locator beacon
Scouts Bikes, pf, locator beacon

Tac, pf, melta, las, Drop Pod
Scouts, Telion, ML, LSS

Besides being terribly troop light (to the point of it being a liability) I like it alot.

not a fan of the power fist on the tac squad, but if the squad is full and no other points can be added, leave it. but that is just imho

Take some of those extra points and give the scout sergeant in the LSS a homing beacon, gives you twice as many options.

Sniper rifles can actually be very effective vs. certain opponents... demons and monstrous creatures of all sorts for example where the high toughness is normally and issue.

Gitsplitta wrote:Take some of those extra points and give the scout sergeant in the LSS a homing beacon, gives you twice as many options.

This may be a stupid question: do teleport homers work for drop pods?

edit: No I think it only works for teleporting in termies.

Magister187 wrote:Besides being terribly troop light (to the point of it being a liability) I like it alot.

Its too bad locator beacons cannot be taken on Scout Sarges. It would solve the low troop count problem. The idea is for the 6 dreads to cause enough trouble the keep them safe.

dajobe wrote:not a fan of the power fist on the tac squad, but if the squad is full and no other points can be added, leave it. but that is just imho

The idea here is that once deployed I can break into combat squads and leave the las in place. The pf sarge and melta move out for closer support. I was thinking a combi-melta in its place. If I just took the las there would be 60 pts kicking around.

Honestly, if you could find enough points to add another scout squad, I think it would be a good call. Right now, I think the only thing going for you in the troops department is a) you have so many drop pods, you can contest their objectives. b) You can keep your tac squad in a drop pod until late and drop them in, and hunker down.

Either way, I really think you should abandon the telion/storm idea (it's really gimicky and slow) and just go for a couple of real scout squads, which is closer to your original idea. My suggestion, find space for two full sized scout squads, one with bolters and camo cloaks, one with telion and an ML. Bolter squad can infiltrate onto a midfield objective, Telion can stay backfield, your tac squad comes down on whichever objective is least protected. Give them a Missile Launcher, Melta Gun and Combi-melta imo.

You might also consider putting a locator beacon on one of your initial pods, which would give you a beacon for the remainder of your pods.

Either way, I like that you are taking your nilla marines in a different direction then most.

I realize I need more troops. One mistake and I have no scoring models. I'm thinking one of three things. The core:

MotF, bike, conversion beamer

IC Dread, 2 HKs, Drop Pod
IC Dread, 2 HKs, Drop Pod
IC Dread, 2 HKs, Drop Pod
IC Dread, 2 HKs, Drop Pod
IC Dread, 2 HKs, Drop Pod
IC Dread, 2 HKs, Drop Pod

Tac, ml, melta, combi-melta, Drop Pod

Scouts Bikes, meltabombs, locator beacon
Scouts Bikes, meltabombs, locator beacon

This comes out to 1715. First option is to add an identical tac squad and add heavy flamers to the dreads for 280 pts. Second is to add two 10-man squads of sniper scouts at 140 each. Last is one 5-man scouts and LSS, one 5-man scouts with ml and camo, and six hf for the dreads.

Snipers v's Terminators

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/376125.page

I think the best thing is to play the " big scout game " a few times

tweaking with telion , librarian ? and rocket launchers

you would be surprised how often 'a practiced general ( player ) can take a sub optimal setup and deliver a close and interesting game ...for me that's the fun part


on the interweb the #1 setups & plays are well known, there will be a lot of " you dont want to do it like that " , for some people playing the game with the right cards is everything , for others a bit of experimentation , pushing the limits & using their skills (battlefield brain) , rather than the power of the their plastic is part of the learning curve.


Ultimately wh40k is like chess , the outcome mostly draw in terms of win/loss ratio & is dependent on dice. With best play , and best army setups this is always the case with any game.


It is only a matter of time before someone writes a computer program that plays wk40k at grandmaster level....enjoy fumbling around in the dark while you can. I dont think there is much hope for human players post 2020ad