Vietnam seeks US support in China dispute

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**Frazzled**

Wait, er, what?

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/05e83b34-94db-11e0-a648-00144feab49a.html

Vietnam seeks US support in China dispute
By Ben Bland in Hanoi

Published: June 12 2011 14:29 | Last updated: June 12 2011 21:36

Vietnam has called on the US and other nations to help resolve the escalating territorial disputes in the resource-rich South China Sea, in a move likely to anger Beijing, which opposes what it sees as outside interference.

Tensions between China and Vietnam continued to rise over the weekend, ahead of live-fire drills planned by Vietnam’s navy on Monday on an islet around 20 miles from the coast of central Vietnam, which Hanoi described as “routine”.

EDITOR’S CHOICE
Pilling: Asia’s quiet anger with ‘big, bad’ China - Jun-01Vietnam and China oil clashes intensify - May-29China defends naval actions - Jun-05US warns Beijing over South China Sea - Jun-04In depth: China shapes the world - Apr-25China and Philippines tensions mount - Jun-01Stirred by a number of maritime confrontations with China over recent weeks, hundreds of Vietnamese took part in rare anti-China protests on Sunday for the second straight weekend, with the usually draconian police allowing the demonstrations to take place.

“China is running an information campaign to blind people,” said Pham Gia Minh, a 55-year-old investment consultant who attended a protest outside the Chinese embassy in Hanoi. “We have to let people understand that we want peace but when the aggressor comes we will stand up to them.”

In addition to China and Vietnam, Brunei, Malaysia, the Philippines and Taiwan claim some or all of the territory in the contested area of the South China Sea, which is believed to contain vast oil and gas reserves and incorporates key trade routes and abundant fish stocks.

The Vietnamese government has ratcheted up its rhetoric in recent weeks amid growing public disquiet over perceived maritime bullying by China, which dominated Vietnam for 1000 years and fought a brief but bloody border war against it in 1979. At the weekend Vietnam’s foreign ministry said that it would “welcome” efforts by the US and other nations to help resolve the South China Sea dispute and maintain peace and stability.

Such sentiments are unlikely to go down well in Beijing, which insists that the long-running row over the South China Sea must be resolved on a purely bilateral basis.

China reacted angrily last July when Hillary Clinton, US secretary of state, insisted that the South China Sea was of strategic importance to the US and offered to act as a mediator.

The US said on Friday that is was “troubled” by the latest developments in the South China Sea, with Mark Toner, a state department spokesman, warning that “shows of force” only increase tensions, which have been on the rise in recent weeks.

Hanoi and Beijing have traded accusations of infringement of sovereignty and harassment of their fishing and oil exploration vessels and China has also clashed with the Philippines in a similar fashion.

“China’s behaviour has gone from assertive to aggressive,” said Ian Storey, a fellow at the Institute for Southeast Asian Studies in Singapore and an expert on maritime security in the South China Sea.

In the latest incident, last Thursday, Vietnam claimed that, for the second time in recent weeks, Chinese boats had trespassed onto its territory and deliberately tried to cut undersea cables deployed by a ship hired by PetroVietnam, the state oil and gas monopoly. China dismissed the allegations, claiming that the boats were fishing in its sovereign waters when they were “illegally chased away by armed Vietnamese ships,” endangering the fishermen’s lives.

The Chinese government remained silent on Sunday, but Hanoi’s latest move is likely to infuriate Beijing as China insists its territorial disputes in the South China Sea must be dealt with bilaterally.

A year ago, Beijing decisively rejected remarks by Hillary Clinton in which the US secretary of state called peace in the region a US national interest and called for a multilateral approach in resolving the disputes.

A regional security expert at National Defense University in Beijing called Hanoi’s latest move a provocation. “This is calculated to provoke a reaction in China which they can then dismiss as aggressive,” said the expert who declined to be named because he was not authorized to speak to foreign media.

The growing tension in the South China Sea also triggered angry reactions among nationalist Chinese on the internet.

”If a single shell falls into Chinese waters, including disputed waters, we should shoot to kill. Can’t we do what North Korea can?” wrote one user on Tiexue, an online bulletin board popular with military enthusiasts and nationalist web users, in reaction to Vietnam’s plans for naval exercises in the area on Monday.

Copyright The Financial Times Limited 2011. You may share using our article tools. Please don't cut articles from FT.com and redistribute by email or post to the web.

**Melissia**

I don't blame them. Not like Vietnam has much else to fight against China.

**Ratius**

Copyright The Financial Times Limited 2011. You may share using our article tools. Please don't cut articles from FT.com and redistribute by email or post to the web.

Reported to relevant authorities.

**Frazzled**

Ratius wrote:
Copyright The Financial Times Limited 2011. You may share using our article tools. Please don't cut articles from FT.com and redistribute by email or post to the web.

Reported to relevant authorities.

**purplefood**

Well played Frazzled...
At any rate this seems both ironic and kinda scary...

**Orlanth**

The FT are after you Frazzie.

Beware, they will smother you with virtual pinstripes, they will frizbee you with virtual bowler hats, they will prod you with virtual umbrellas, they will call you naughty.

Crassus Armoured Assault Transports cannot save you now.
Sleep well, if you can.

**purplefood**

The CRASSUS ARMOURED ASSAULT TRANSPORT can save anyone...

**SilverMK2**

Perhaps you can bring Argentina to the table as well so they can see what an actual territorial claim looks like?

Or does America only get into these things if they are tying to annoy the English?

**Frazzled**

Orlanth wrote:The FT are after you Frazzie.

Beware, they will smother you with virtual pinstripes, they will frizbee you with virtual bowler hats, they will prod you with virtual umbrellas, they will call you naughty.

Crassus Armoured Assault Transports cannot save you now.
Sleep well, if you can.

Well as long as its not Odd Job with the derby hat I should be ok.

**Orlanth**

Frazzled wrote:
Orlanth wrote:The FT are after you Frazzie.

Beware, they will smother you with virtual pinstripes, they will frizbee you with virtual bowler hats, they will prod you with virtual umbrellas, they will call you naughty.

Crassus Armoured Assault Transports cannot save you now.
Sleep well, if you can.

Well as long as its not Odd Job with the derby hat I should be ok.

That would involve employing minorities.

**Frazzled**

Thats probably an inside joke of some sort.

**Orlanth**

SilverMK2 wrote:Perhaps you can bring Argentina to the table as well so they can see what an actual territorial claim looks like?

Bad call, China is supporting Argentinas claims heavily with propoganda at the moment. in truth they are doing ther nodding dog to what kirscher says because they sniff oil contracts in the 'Malvinas', while there is clearly no room for Chinese wells in the Falklands.
Argentina would be happy to speak on behalf of China at the moment, it will reduce the final bill for their services.

Thread turning to serious now:

More critically what Argentina want is similar to what China wants, in terms of basic principle. China is starting to say, we want ctontrol of assets near our coast, which is essentially what Argentina is saying. The legality of the arguments is of less importance than the idea that we are here, persistently demanding and arming ourselves.

SilverMK2 wrote:Or does Obama only get into these things if they are tying to annoy the English?

Fixed.

Vietnam is very concerned, China is going ahead with its fleet expansion and bubbling out propoganda at the moment about how the growing fleet of a 'harmonious China' is no threat to global security. That very comment beinf a reaction to concerns of the nearing completion of the first Chinese aircraft carrier.

http://www.informationdissemination.net/2011/06/chen-bingde-talks-aircraft-carriers.html

China is starting to flex its real muscles regarding assets in the Pacific. This is causing states like Taiwan and Vietnam in particular to get nervous. Vietnam has no natural allies, since the Soviet Union was gone, however Hanoi might could on sufficient 'colonial guilt' from the US, and possibly French populace to garner some support. This is not an unreasonable suggestion, it works on most colonial authorities, and those synonymous with colonial authorities including the French and us.

BBC map showing showing political claims rising to the surface since China proves it knows how to fly jets from ships.

**The Foot**

I hate to say it but I don't think anyone will do anything in this situation. The UN might write a letter telling China that they won't get invited to their birthday party, the US won't want to get involved since we are already a joke internationally, and the other countries around China couldn't fight them even if they wanted to.

**notprop**

The Us should send Military Advisors, with an option to reinforce with actual fighting forces if needed to stop agression from the the North.

What could possibly go wrong?

**Frazzled**

notprop wrote:The Us should send Military Advisors, with an option to reinforce with actual fighting forces if needed to stop agression from the the North.

What could possibly go wrong?

We should probably help partol the Gulf of Tonkin. Anyone have a destroyer laying about?

**Orlanth**

notprop wrote:The Us should send Military Advisors, with an option to reinforce with actual fighting forces if needed to stop agression from the the North.

What could possibly go wrong?

Thats Kennedy's fault. The CIA wanted JFK to open negotiatioons with Hanoi and Ho Chi Minhwas open to CIA offers. Things could have gone differently.

Vietnam has a hostile northern border with China and has fought land wars with China before, China bounced. Admittedly its not the same China as it was then, but its not the same Vietnam either. Same tenacity, but given sufficient backing Vietnam could be the block against communist agression. Ironic isnt it.

If, and thats an if Vietnam is genuinely tghreatened all the US needs to do is what it did before: Send guns tanks and planes to Vietnam, the major difference is that Hanoi is the destination and they wont need to send even a single combat advisor. The Vietnamese can send officers on any required technical training courses abroad and I don't think anyone will gainsay me if I say the Vietnamese are motivated and dont need US help to be taught how to handle themselves in a fight.

Chinese aircraft carriers pose a real problem. But anti ship missile technology is good enough that if rockets were sold to the Vietnamese, Phillipine and Taiwanese governments and set up on their coats coast backed up by satellite intelligence, it would be a cold shower to any threat of Chinese 'harmony'.
This would mean giving away technology best not proliferated, but might be better than being forced in to a showdown with China, and it looks like China may well make a play for power in the Pacific Rim.

**notprop**

Frazzled wrote:
notprop wrote:The Us should send Military Advisors, with an option to reinforce with actual fighting forces if needed to stop agression from the the North.

What could possibly go wrong?

We should probably help partol the Gulf of Tonkin. Anyone have a destroyer laying about?

Too soon?

Hang on, is this really going on or are we discussing a relatively recent James Bond flick?

I'm confussed?

**Frazzled**

Orlanth wrote:
notprop wrote:The Us should send Military Advisors, with an option to reinforce with actual fighting forces if needed to stop agression from the the North.

What could possibly go wrong?

Thats Kennedy's fault. The CIA wanted JFK to open negotiatioons with Hanoi and Ho Chi Minhwas open to CIA offers. Things could have gone differently.

Vietnam has a hostile northern border with China and has fought land wars with China before, China bounced. Admittedly its not the same China as it was then, but its not the same Vietnam either. Same tenacity, but given sufficient backing Vietnam could be the block against communist agression. Ironic isnt it.

If, and thats an if Vietnam is genuinely tghreatened all the US needs to do is what it did before: Send guns tanks and planes to Vietnam, the major difference is that Hanoi is the destination and they wont need to send even a single combat advisor. The Vietnamese can send officers on any required technical training courses abroad and I don't think anyone will gainsay me if I say the Vietnamese are motivated and dont need US help to be taught how to handle themselves in a fight.

Chinese aircraft carriers pose a real problem. But anti ship missile technology is good enough that if rockets were sold to the Vietnamese, Phillipine and Taiwanese governments and set up on their coats coast backed up by satellite intelligence, it would be a cold shower to any threat of Chinese 'harmony'.
This would mean giving away technology best not proliferated, but might be better than being forced in to a showdown with China, and it looks like China may well make a play for power in the Pacific Rim.

No.

We've done enough thank you very much.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

notprop wrote:
Frazzled wrote:
notprop wrote:The Us should send Military Advisors, with an option to reinforce with actual fighting forces if needed to stop agression from the the North.

What could possibly go wrong?

We should probably help partol the Gulf of Tonkin. Anyone have a destroyer laying about?

Too soon?

Hang on, is this really going on or are we discussing a relatively recent James Bond flick?

I'm confussed?

1. Really gong on, but please look up Golf of Tonkin and beginnings of the Vietnam War.

**romegamer**

Well the vietnamese certainly crumbled last time they were at war with the worlds most powerful nation, so they same would probably happen again.......oh wait....
Sarcasm aside, I beleive any attempt by the Chinese to subjugate the vietnamese people would likely turn out the same way as it did for the US, and it is important to remember that the vietnamese people harbor a special resentment to Chinese aggresion, having dealt with it for countless centuries. However, it is also wotrth noting that the chinese may be more willing to resort to violence to quash a hostile populations efforts at resistance, it is anyones guess wether that would crush or stiffen their resistance

**Frazzled**

romegamer wrote:Well the vietnamese certainly crumbled last time they were at war with the worlds most powerful nation, so they same would probably happen again.......oh wait....
Sarcasm aside, I beleive any attempt by the Chinese to subjugate the vietnamese people would likely turn out the same way as it did for the US, and it is important to remember that the vietnamese people harbor a special resentment to Chinese aggresion, having dealt with it for countless centuries. However, it is also wotrth noting that the chinese may be more willing to resort to violence to quash a hostile populations efforts at resistance, it is anyones guess wether that would crush or stiffen their resistance

They don't have to. This is about ocean rights. China superior, Vietnam definitely inferior.

**romegamer**

Frazzled wrote:
romegamer wrote:Well the vietnamese certainly crumbled last time they were at war with the worlds most powerful nation, so they same would probably happen again.......oh wait....
Sarcasm aside, I beleive any attempt by the Chinese to subjugate the vietnamese people would likely turn out the same way as it did for the US, and it is important to remember that the vietnamese people harbor a special resentment to Chinese aggresion, having dealt with it for countless centuries. However, it is also wotrth noting that the chinese may be more willing to resort to violence to quash a hostile populations efforts at resistance, it is anyones guess wether that would crush or stiffen their resistance

They don't have to. This is about ocean rights. China superior, Vietnam definitely inferior.

Gunboat diplomacy at its finest I suppose

**Frazzled**

Indeed. The world is going to be an interesting place when Pax Americana finally fades completely.

**romegamer**

But hey, the Japanese were vastly inferior to the Russian naval power in the russo japanese war, and look what western assistance did for them. so who knows.

**Samus_aran115**

Back to the Jungle boys!

**Swordwind**

Orlanth wrote:
http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/53300000/jpg/_53300339_south_china-sea_1_466.jpg

That claim is so large I feel it's rather silly.

It also happens to screw with my own country's waters, so yeah.

**Frazzled**

Swordwind wrote:
Orlanth wrote:
http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/53300000/jpg/_53300339_south_china-sea_1_466.jpg

That claim is so large I feel it's rather silly.

It also happens to screw with my own country's waters, so yeah.

Its not silly if they have a navy to back it up. Oh look what they're building...

But people say I'm an alarmist reactionary...

**Swordwind**

Frazzled wrote:
Swordwind wrote:
Orlanth wrote:
http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/53300000/jpg/_53300339_south_china-sea_1_466.jpg

That claim is so large I feel it's rather silly.

It also happens to screw with my own country's waters, so yeah.

Its not silly if they have a navy to back it up. Oh look what they're building...

But people say I'm an alarmist reactionary...

This is the bit were all the SEA countries with a navy gang up and get horribly, horribly beaten.

**J-Roc77**

A border dispute with China? GASP!

This one is kind of a biggie, not that the others with Pakistan and India are not....Just that this claim is quite large.