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Hey all.

My brother played a game against our uncle the other day and a scenario came up:

My uncle used Flat-Out on his Land Speeder to zip across the board. He did not land in area terrain but there was intervening area terrain between the Land Speeder and my brother's Hive Guard. The question arose on whether or not the Impaler Cannon's special rules negates the cover saves from the Land Speeder's Flat-Out movement or not. The wording on the Impaler Cannon is a little vague so we weren't real sure. Flat-Out states that it is considered as being obscured which grants a 4+ cover save.

Does an Impaler Cannon negate the 4+ cover save from a fast skimmer that moved "Flat-Out" the previous movement phase?

If the rules for that particular weapon states that cover is ignored, then it is ignored. Just count 'flat-out' as any other cover save.

I do not run nids, but a logical conclusion can usually be extracted from any two conflicting rules.


Hope that helps

Would be easy if it literally says "cover is ignored", but it doesn't. I don't know if I will be reprimanded for quoting the text exactly, so I am refraining from it.

Impaler cannon only negates cover from blocked LoS if memory serves correctly. Area Terrain, KFF, Flatout, turboboost, etc etc I believe still get their save. You can quote the majority of the rule just not the whole passage.

The relevant part is that, "The target can only count the benefits of cover they are in or touching if it lies between them and the Hive Guard."
So the question would be; does the cover granted by moving flat out (or turbo boosting for that mattter) count as being "in the cover" and as such grant a cover save against an impaler cannon?

So the question would be; does the cover granted by moving flat out (or turbo boosting for that mattter) count as being "in the cover" and as such grant a cover save against an impaler cannon?

When it is put like that, I would think the answer would most definitely be that the Land Speeder gets the cover save.

Their cannons ignore cover based on LOS. It says that in the weapon listing.

The land speeders had a 4+ from obscurement, and a 4+ from flat out. The cannons ignore the 4+ from obscurement, but the speeders still have the 4+ from flat out. Simple stuff.

The land speeders had a 4+ from obscurement, and a 3+ from flat out. The cannons ignore the 4+ from obscurement, but the speeders still have the 3+ from flat out. Simple stuff.

Wait. What? Pretty sure that all Flat-Out gives you with a fast skimmer is 'obscured'. Where are you getting 3+ from?

juraigamer wrote:Their cannons ignore cover based on LOS. It says that in the weapon listing.

The land speeders had a 4+ from obscurement, and a 3+ from flat out. The cannons ignore the 4+ from obscurement, but the speeders still have the 3+ from flat out. Simple stuff.

I think you're confusing flat out with turboboosting.
Skimmers moving flat out count as obscured and get a 4+ cover save.
Units turboboosting gain a 3+ cover save.

juraigamer wrote:Their cannons ignore cover based on LOS. It says that in the weapon listing.

The land speeders had a 4+ from obscurement, and a 3+ from flat out. The cannons ignore the 4+ from obscurement, but the speeders still have the 3+ from flat out. Simple stuff.

Completely and utterly wrong.

- Impaler Cannons ignore benefits of cover from terrain that the enemy is in or touching if it is not between them and the Hive Guard. Most of the time this won't do anything, since this is pretty much identical to the way that area terrain is treated with normal weapons. The rule is there to prevent people from claiming cover by saying "the missiles came from the left, since the Hive Guard doesn't have LOS to me and they must have curved around that wall there" or something to that effect.

- Impaler Cannons have no effect on cover saves. Special rules and wargear which grant cover saves are not the same as cover or terrain.

- Obscured vehicle cover saves are 4+, not 3+

- Moving flat out grants obscured status, not a set save value

Xarian wrote:

juraigamer wrote:
- Impaler Cannons have no effect on cover saves. Special rules and wargear which grant cover saves are not the same as cover or terrain.

So you're saying that a monstrous creature or vehicle that was 50% obscured from the Hive Guard would get a cover save even if it was not actually in any cover?

Rules/Wargear that grant cover saves are not affected by the Impaler Cannon.

Ork Bikers' Dust Cloud, Venomthropes cover bubble, Shield of Sanguinus, Flat-Out, Turbo-boosting, etc., etc. Because it is expressly granted to the model from such. The impaler cannon simply says, "You cannot claim the benefits of cover unless you are in or touching. . ."

It has nothing to do with expressly granted rules. You're not in or touching anything. You have a rule that says you get a cover save.

That works for me, I always thought it would because those types of cover saves are not dependent on the terrain or cover the model is physically in.

Sounds good. Thanks, guys!

Durr, of course I would make a simple mistake like that...

juraigamer wrote:Durr, of course I would make a simple mistake like that...

Just don't make it during the game and it's all good!

juraigamer wrote:Durr, of course I would make a simple mistake like that...

Simple stuff really.

Couldn't help it.

puma713 wrote:The impaler cannon simply says, "You cannot claim the benefits of cover unless you are in or touching. . ."

While your conclusion was correct, this is not the correct wording of the impaler cannon - at all. The wording only affects cover that the models are in/touching and no other types of cover whatsoever.

I'll go through it step by step:

"The target can only count the benefits of cover they are in or touching if..."

Does this rule ignore other types of cover (50% blocked LOS, etc)? No. It only mentions one specific type of cover: cover that the models are in or touching. That's why there's no period before the 'if'.

"...if it lies between them and the Hive Guard."

So this rule ignores the particular type of cover unless it is between the model and the Hive Guard.

--

It fits the structure "X can only benefit from Y if Z"
Or, alternately, "X benefits from Y only if Z"
Which is another way of saying "If not Z then X does not benefit from Y"

Where:
X = "the target"
Y = "cover they are in or touching"
Z = "it lies between them and the Hive Guard"

So it boils down to: "If it does not lie between them and the hive guard, then the target may not benefit from cover they are in or touching"

You'll note that in this entire argument, cover that the model is not in and is not touching is not mentioned.

And also, to respond to time wizard:
Yes, that's correct.