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This is something I've never quite understood about the Dark Angels. They're obsessive about the Fallen. The Fallen are their deep, dark secret.

...yet, as Grey Knights fluff points out, the Grey Knights are the only Astartes chapter in the Imperium that can lay claim to the honor of never having had any of its members fall to Chaos. That, of course, suggests that the other 999 have, which means the Fallen ain't that unusual. If that's the case, why do the DAs care so much about keeping the Fallen a secret when the Ultramarines had a squad decide they really liked that horned helmet look that Chaos rocks a week ago?

The Fallen weren't just a squad of marines, it was Johnson's companion and almost brother, Luther, and all The Dark Angels sent back to Caliban. It's also the fact that it was during The Heresy that it happened, meaning that they were the only loyal Legion to have members betray them. If some marines fall, or a whole chapter then sure, it's a great loss, this was around half of what was a very proud Legion, it's a stain on their honor that they can't get rid of.

I don't think they've had any fall since the original split. Plus, most chapters/legions that remained did not have fully half of their forces turn traitor. I think they are afraid that if it was found out, they would kill the geneseed production for their chapter. Seeing as a large number of traitors is usually indicative of a weakness within the geneseed itself.

iproxtaco wrote:The Fallen weren't just a squad of marines, it was Johnson's companion and almost brother, Luther, and all The Dark Angels sent back to Caliban. It's also the fact that it was during The Heresy that it happened, meaning that they were the only loyal Legion to have members betray them. If some marines fall, or a whole chapter then sure, it's a great loss, this was around half of what was a very proud Legion, it's a stain on their honor that they can't get rid of.

Ratbarf wrote:I don't think they've had any fall since the original split. Plus, most chapters/legions that remained did not have fully half of their forces turn traitor. I think they are afraid that if it was found out, they would kill the geneseed production for their chapter. Seeing as a large number of traitors is usually indicative of a weakness within the geneseed itself.

That makes considerably more sense. Thanks guys.

I mean, the fact that they fell was bad, but it wasn't why they are so infamous. It's the Legion they betrayed, the fact that they were so proud, the number of them and exactly who betrayed them, and when it actually happened. I can imagine that there would be a lot of repercussions if the The Imperium ever found out now.

iproxtaco wrote:I mean, the fact that they fell was bad, but it wasn't why they are so infamous. It's the Legion they betrayed, the fact that they were so proud, the number of them and exactly who betrayed them, and when it actually happened. I can imagine that there would be a lot of repercussions if the The Imperium ever found out now.

Indeed.

In addition, the true loyalty of the DA is sometimes questioned by some high officials of the Imperial bureaucracy. Their unusual habits and the secrecy surrounding them creates a lot of suspicion. If these same people were to discover that during the HH, a third of the legion went traitor, the chapter would surely be declared excomunicate traitoris.

There was a fair few of them.

Although I do think it's a little on the crazy obsessive side.

its more of a Legion issue.


the DAs claim to have stayed loyal, the fact that 1/2 the legion rebelled would draw suspicion upon them.

so they seek to erase all traces of that shame.


its made doubly worse by the fact they are the 1st Legion. they were the Emperor's favored legion. there is some significant pride rolling around there.

Grey Templar wrote:its more of a Legion issue.


the DAs claim to have stayed loyal, the fact that 1/2 the legion rebelled would draw suspicion upon them.

so they seek to erase all traces of that shame.


its made doubly worse by the fact they are the 1st Legion. they were the Emperor's favored legion. there is some significant pride rolling around there.

It was alot less than a half, those on Caliban was a garrison force that was ment to train new recruits.

To add to the reasons why it is such a shame, the legion was strongly influenced by Caliban, which had a very strong 'arthurian' knightly tradition, one of the cornerstones of this is honour.

Grey Templar wrote: they were the Emperor's favored legion.

As much as I love DA and am one of our Legion/Chapter's biggest fans, no they weren't.

That would be the Emperor's Children, hence their name and the fact that they're the ONLY Legion that got to wear the Aquila.

We're simply the legion that he supposedly chose to lead himself until the Lion was found.

Platuan4th wrote:

Grey Templar wrote: they were the Emperor's favored legion.

As much as I love DA and am one of our Legion/Chapter's biggest fans, no they weren't.

That would be the Emperor's Children, hence their name and the fact that they're the ONLY Legion that got to wear the Aquila.

We're simply the legion that he supposedly chose to lead himself until the Lion was found.

Which, it must be said, is still a pretty big deal

the First Legion.

thats some distinction.


the oldest Astertes formation in history.

As it stands, right now, I've got a little working theory on the reason for the 'shame' of the Dark Angels.

It's not just the fact that "Oh, they had people turn traitor!".

By and large...that's not *that* big of a deal. The Horus Heresy was a time of traitors.

The Loyalist Legions by and large didn't have any until after the Heresy, but still. If it had been unveiled during that timeframe and the Dark Angels went out of their way like they did to correct it(you know, the whole "destroying their own homeworld bit)? I can't see the Imperium at large having had an issue with it to the extent that we saw the striking of the Traitor Legions. Look at the Death Korps of Krieg. The Autocrats of Krieg declared themselves independent from the Imperium. Some of Krieg stayed loyal and purged the world with atomic fire.
Now? Now they're some of the most trusted and vaunted Guard Regiments that everyone wants.

What the biggest issue is that it was Jonson's chosen second,his most trusted confidante, and his mentor that led Caliban not into siding with Horus...but breaking fealty with the Emperor and declaring themselves for Caliban.
Jonson wholeheartedly believed in "The Imperial Truth" and the reasons to bring humanity back together--mostly because of Luther's teachings to him while he served with The Order.

Luther chose to reject The Imperial Truth and to try to regress back to what Caliban was before. That's not just "oh how dare he turn traitor". That's "How DARE he turn traitor to everything that he taught me and betray everything that even he held dear!".

Kanluwen wrote:As it stands, right now, I've got a little working theory on the reason for the 'shame' of the Dark Angels.

-snip-

Luther chose to reject The Imperial Truth and to try to regress back to what Caliban was before. That's not just "oh how dare he turn traitor". That's "How DARE he turn traitor to everything that he taught me and betray everything that even he held dear!".

I like this! It gives them both more character than just "well, some turned bad you see."

I think the first two answers summed it up pretty well.

Also, whatever the DA's reason for keeping it secret when it happened was doesn't matter so much anymore as they've kept it secret for 10,000 years (is this right? I'm crap with dates and time in 40k) so if it was ever confirmed that a chapter had been keeping a secret from the whole imperium for that long, how do you think the imperium would feel? Especially Inquisitors and the like. No matter what the secret was, or who was keeping it, they would all be claimed excommunicate traitors for sure; just for keeping that secret at all, especially for that long. At least one of the reasons they keep it a secret now is because they're in 'too deep'.

tantan628 wrote:I think the first two answers summed it up pretty well.

Also, whatever the DA's reason for keeping it secret when it happened was doesn't matter so much anymore as they've kept it secret for 10,000 years (is this right? I'm crap with dates and time in 40k) so if it was ever confirmed that a chapter had been keeping a secret from the whole imperium for that long, how do you think the imperium would feel. No matter what the secret was they would all be claimed excommunicate traitors for sure just keeping that secret. At least one of the reasons they keep it a secret now is because they're in 'too deep'.

10,000 years is correct. It has been 10k years since the Heresy.

They had to destroy there own homeworld in the battle and lost their primarch during said battle. thats a little embarrassing.

Also Luther was like second in command wasnt he? he was like the equivilant of Lion El Johnson in terms of respect and recognition in the DA.

I think most of it has to do with Pride. and the chapter was split pretty significantly, as in thousands of DA turned traitor.

tantan628 wrote:I think the first two answers summed it up pretty well.

Also, whatever the DA's reason for keeping it secret when it happened was doesn't matter so much anymore as they've kept it secret for 10,000 years (is this right? I'm crap with dates and time in 40k) so if it was ever confirmed that a chapter had been keeping a secret from the whole imperium for that long, how do you think the imperium would feel? Especially Inquisitors and the like. No matter what the secret was, or who was keeping it, they would all be claimed excommunicate traitors for sure; just for keeping that secret at all, especially for that long. At least one of the reasons they keep it a secret now is because they're in 'too deep'.

Putting it bluntly:

If the Inquisition were to jump into this and declare the Dark Angels 'Excommunicate Traitoris'?

You're going to have basically every single Dark Angels Successor(aka "The Unforgiven") joining the fray on the side of the Dark Angels, since their command echelons are well aware of what The Fallen are.

And there's a lot of them.

You're also likely to have a large amount of the Chapters siding with the Dark Angels as well. Because frankly--'It's Astartes business'.

The Dark Angels aren't doing anything 'wrong' in the eyes of the Astartes at large. They're cleaning up their own mess, and have been doing it for 10,000 years.

In that same timeframe, they've not had a single Battle-Brother fall to any outside influence as well. Any who try are killed by the Unforgiven themselves.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Vulpes89 wrote:They had to destroy their own homeworld in the battle and lost their primarch during said battle. thats a little embarrassing.

Yes and no. They destroyed their own homeworld, after returning from the Heresy and its aftermath to find the world having seceded from the Imperium and declaring it for themselves.

Also Luther was like second in command wasn't he? he was like the equivalent of Lion El Johnson in terms of respect and recognition in the DA.

He was the equivalent of Lion El'Jonson in terms of respect and recognition in the Dark Angels because he was essentially Jonson's 'father'.

It was Luther who found Jonson, naked and unafraid in the wilds of Caliban.
It was Luther who decided not to kill Jonson, then and there, as some kind of aberration of humanity.
It was Luther who molded Jonson into the man he became, and who fostered him into becoming the great warleader of the Calibanite Orders.

And ultimately, it was Luther who shattered the Legion.

I think most of it has to do with Pride. and the chapter was split pretty significantly, as in thousands of DA turned traitor.

There weren't that many that turned traitor. The biggest issue is simply who turned traitor.

Namely: some of Jonson's most trusted advisors and followers, who he had warred alongside of before his ascension to Primarch of the Dark Angels.

Putting it bluntly:

If the Inquisition were to jump into this and declare the Dark Angels 'Excommunicate Traitoris'?

You're going to have basically every single Dark Angels Successor(aka "The Unforgiven") joining the fray on the side of the Dark Angels, since their command echelons are well aware of what The Fallen are.

And there's a lot of them.

You're also likely to have a large amount of the Chapters siding with the Dark Angels as well. Because frankly--'It's Astartes business'.

The Dark Angels aren't doing anything 'wrong' in the eyes of the Astartes at large. They're cleaning up their own mess, and have been doing it for 10,000 years.

In that same timeframe, they've not had a single Battle-Brother fall to any outside influence as well. Any who try are killed by the Unforgiven themselves.

IMHO I doubt they would be forgiven by inquisitors. I said the DA's would be declared traitors, I didn't say that they would actually be traitors. They would probably just immediately retreat from any engagements with the imperium and would go on a mass suicide mission to redeem themselves. Or possibly keep working for the good of the imperium without being part of the imperium so they'd keep hunting down the fallen.

However, I agree the inquisitors would eventually have to give in due to other astartes siding with the DA's but they would have one hell of a go first (like they do with SW every time they attempt to give them orders). You're right in the long run actually I think as other astartes would side with them and the inquisition would give in to stop another mass heresy.

On a side note, I'd like to see what happens if the inquisition finds out the DA's believe Cypher is headed to Terra.

tantan628 wrote:

Putting it bluntly:

If the Inquisition were to jump into this and declare the Dark Angels 'Excommunicate Traitoris'?

You're going to have basically every single Dark Angels Successor(aka "The Unforgiven") joining the fray on the side of the Dark Angels, since their command echelons are well aware of what The Fallen are.

And there's a lot of them.

You're also likely to have a large amount of the Chapters siding with the Dark Angels as well. Because frankly--'It's Astartes business'.

The Dark Angels aren't doing anything 'wrong' in the eyes of the Astartes at large. They're cleaning up their own mess, and have been doing it for 10,000 years.

In that same timeframe, they've not had a single Battle-Brother fall to any outside influence as well. Any who try are killed by the Unforgiven themselves.

IMHO I doubt they would be forgiven by inquisitors. I said the DA's would be declared traitors, I didn't say that they would actually be traitors. They would probably just immediately retreat from any engagements with the imperium and would go on a mass suicide mission to redeem themselves. Or possibly keep working for the good of the imperium without being part of the imperium so they'd keep hunting down the fallen.

That's kind of the point. If the Inquisition declares them traitors, then it's a black mark against ALL the Astartes.

However, I agree the inquisitors would eventually have to give in due to other astartes siding with the DA's but they would have one hell of a go first (like they do with SW every time they attempt to give them orders). You're right in the long run actually I think as other astartes would side with them and the inquisition would give in to stop another mass heresy.

Last time the Inquisition tried to boss Astartes around, we had The Badab War.

On a side note, I'd like to see what happens if the inquisition finds out the DA's believe Cypher is headed to Terra.

They don't actually believe that, it's conjecture from both players and the Dark Angels.

tantan628 wrote:IMHO I doubt they would be forgiven by inquisitors. I said the DA's would be declared traitors, I didn't say that they would actually be traitors.

Although there are many examples of inquisitors acting hot headidly, the Inquisition (not single inquisitors) is not a stupid organisation. Unless a First Founding Chapter is lead by a deamon prince or some other level of total corruption they would not have the option to declare them traitors.

Dark Angels have:
The Rock - one of the largest space vessels in IoM hands
The Unforgiven - basically the Dark Angels under different colours
Many First Founding Chapters would side with them (even with the rivalry, the Space Wolves would probably side with them as well)
Many other Chapters (just look at the numbers that sided with a chapter like the Astral Claws, now times this by the fact that the Dark Angels are the first legion)
IG/Navy commanders who have had the Dark Angels save their/their troops arses

Adding it all up, declaring a first founding chapter would lead to a civil war, a pretty messy civil war.

BluntmanDC wrote:

tantan628 wrote:IMHO I doubt they would be forgiven by inquisitors. I said the DA's would be declared traitors, I didn't say that they would actually be traitors.

Although there are many examples of inquisitors acting hot headidly, the Inquisition (not single inquisitors) is not a stupid organisation. Unless a First Founding Chapter is lead by a deamon prince or some other level of total corruption they would not have the option to declare them traitors.

Dark Angels have:
The Rock - one of the largest space vessels in IoM hands
The Unforgiven - basically the Dark Angels under different colours
Many First Founding Chapters would side with them (even with the rivalry, the Space Wolves would probably side with them as well)
Many other Chapters (just look at the numbers that sided with a chapter like the Astral Claws, now times this by the fact that the Dark Angels are the first legion)
IG/Navy commanders who have had the Dark Angels save their/their troops arses

Adding it all up, declaring a first founding chapter would lead to a civil war, a pretty messy civil war.

To play devil's advocate though, think of all the battles the Dark Angels have mysteriously vanished from to go off and do something, leaving others to fight alone (I must assume this includes even other Astartes).

CrazyThang wrote:

To play devil's advocate though, think of all the battles the Dark Angels have mysteriously vanished from to go off and do something, leaving others to fight alone (I must assume this includes even other Astartes).

That's actually very few where the Dark Angels have done that.

There's one of their Successors that has done that, but not the Dark Angels proper.

Kanluwen wrote:

CrazyThang wrote:

To play devil's advocate though, think of all the battles the Dark Angels have mysteriously vanished from to go off and do something, leaving others to fight alone (I must assume this includes even other Astartes).

That's actually very few where the Dark Angels have done that.

There's one of their Successors that has done that, but not the Dark Angels proper.

Ya know, looking through it again, I cannot find where I read that

Inquisitors who declare Astartes chapters to be traitors without sufficient evidence don't tend to last very long.


the Chapter usually ends up either destroyed or on the run, but the Inquisitor often gets humiliated and effectivly ends his career.


Inquisitors CAN boss marines around, but the unwritten rule is that the Marines are on pretty much equal ground with the Inquisitor. they are valuable allies and you don't want to make them mad or unfriendly. you might just need them to bail you out someday, and they tend to remember what you did to them.

The biggest reason not mentioned is that it directly led to the loss of their primarch. He didn't disappear on a quest, etc, he disappeared fighting other DA.

Dark Angels fluff is very interesting, and I think it is mostly (as said before) because it was their primarch's mentor, who taught him everything who turned. If someone like the inquisition found out this, surely they would make the connection that in teaching Lion el'Jonson everything, he could have taught him about chaos (subtly of course) and how good that was, effectively flawing the whole geneseed of the chapter? This isn't what i believe, just what the inquisition could jump the gun and assume. But I agree that saying a first founding chapter excommunicate traitoris would lead to pretty much every other loyal chapter siding with the DA (even the SW, it's only a rivalry, they're not enemies or anything) because not a single marine has turned traitor has turned since the heresy, which is more than most of the other chapters can say!

Sledgio wrote:Dark Angels fluff is very interesting, and I think it is mostly (as said before) because it was their primarch's mentor, who taught him everything who turned. If someone like the inquisition found out this, surely they would make the connection that in teaching Lion el'Jonson everything, he could have taught him about chaos (subtly of course) and how good that was, effectively flawing the whole geneseed of the chapter? This isn't what i believe, just what the inquisition could jump the gun and assume. But I agree that saying a first founding chapter excommunicate traitoris would lead to pretty much every other loyal chapter siding with the DA (even the SW, it's only a rivalry, they're not enemies or anything) because not a single marine has turned traitor has turned since the heresy, which is more than most of the other chapters can say!

The hole in that theory is that Luther never really 'fell to Chaos'. He never knowingly embraced it, nor did many of the Fallen before they were scattered throughout space and time by the Ruinous Powers.

That's kind of what makes it a big problem to theorize on the Dark Angels. Right now, Luther has not proclaimed himself and Caliban for Horus. They just have seceded from the Imperium.

Kanluwen wrote:

CrazyThang wrote:

To play devil's advocate though, think of all the battles the Dark Angels have mysteriously vanished from to go off and do something, leaving others to fight alone (I must assume this includes even other Astartes).

That's actually very few where the Dark Angels have done that.

There's one of their Successors that has done that, but not the Dark Angels proper.

During the 13th Black Crusade, the Dark Angels took their ball and went home after Cypher showed up, leaving some Imperial forces quite in the lurch.

DarknessEternal wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

CrazyThang wrote:

To play devil's advocate though, think of all the battles the Dark Angels have mysteriously vanished from to go off and do something, leaving others to fight alone (I must assume this includes even other Astartes).

That's actually very few where the Dark Angels have done that.

There's one of their Successors that has done that, but not the Dark Angels proper.

During the 13th Black Crusade, the Dark Angels took their ball and went home after Cypher showed up, leaving some Imperial forces quite in the lurch.

Incorrect.

The Dark Angels "took their ball" as you put it because Logan Grimnar was put in charge, rather than Azrael or Dante who arguably had seniority over him.

The Dark Angels also did not "go home", but continued to operate within the Scarus subsector--just without following any 'direct orders'.