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Did the emporer reject the idea of himself being worshiped as a god during his own time, similar to TheBuddha? or did he style himself as a religious messiah? If he did reject it, how did he come to be diefied?

He rejected all religon including the worship of him.
He became diefied because The Imperium is powered by irony.

He didn't want to be thought of as a god. He tried to stamp out the religion Lorgar formed describing him as one.

Legion was the only book where we really got a look at the Emperor from someone who was in a position (genetically and mentally) to be capable of understanding him. At least, that I've read. Several of the other books talk about him though.

It seems that he didn't want to be viewed as a religious figure. Since he is unbelievably old, he walked through the history of man influencing events as he saw fit. The creation of the Imperium was his desired goal, and he did a damn fine job of it. It has been theorized that while attempting to lead people at earlier stages of his career, he gave rise to religions. (It is possible that Buddha or Confucius or Jesus were really the Emperor. And actually, Confucius makes a LOT of sense...)

I personally think he saw himself as more of a father figure, guiding all of humanity because he was capable of doing so, and therefore felt obligated to do so.

As Darkness stated, Lorgar tried to form a religion around him, and the Emperor chastised him for doing so. As powerful as he was, the Imperial Cult sprung up anyway. The rise of mystical powers done in the Emperor's name (most likely psyker phenomena that was merely focused through the psyker's faith) like those of Euphrates Keeler helped this faith along.

I think, Personal Opinion Warning that the Emperor was hamstrung by his own knowledge. He was the most advanced being he had ever met, and while others viewed him as a god, he knew that he was just a man. (Okay, THE man.) Not a god, just the highest potential that humans could achieve. All of human evolution up until his birth had been designed to produce him. A natural phenomenon. His early experience with deification (if not personally, he most certainly witnessed normal men like Siddhartha and Confucius give rise to religions) made him skeptical of all supernatural events. After all, if he knew there was nothing supernatural about himself, despite what everyone else thought, why should he believe that any other 'gods' weren't just very advanced alien beings?

This led to him underestimating the Chaos gods (who he most certainly was aware of) and the downfall of the best hope mankind had.

So there you go, my personal take on things. Hope this helps.

I like that view, it recognizes that The Emperor wasn't perfect, that he made mistakes, but isn't some exaggerated opinion like "uh The Emperor was total rubbish, look what the failed at", which usually ignores his accomplishments.

Thank you. I try to keep a balanced viewpoint, and separate my own opinions from the background (as written or intended) when discussing this sort of thing.

What about all this business of huis mind powers fighting the forces of chaos in the warp. Maybe the emperor was wrong, and he truly was a god?

He is, kind of, a God. He's so powerful, able to shape the world around him and inspire his followers like a God.

I think you've captured his outlook well. I'm not sure if I'd call him a batural human though. He like, made himself. That's pretty supernatural imo.

I dunno whether he was conscious about his own creation. One thing I don't understand. If he was formed by millions of shamans, where did they come from if The Emperor has been alive since around the time Jesus was alive?

It depends on how you define God. He's worshipped as a God and has the powers of a God, and if the GT fails, and his soul becomes united again then he could ascend to Godhood in the same sense as the Chaos Gods, and then he'll have the psychic might of every human being under his command. Not even Chuck Norris could withstand that.

iproxtaco wrote:I like that view, it recognizes that The Emperor wasn't perfect, that he made mistakes, but isn't some exaggerated opinion like "uh

Good lord did he make mistakes. The one thing the Emperor was completely unable to understand, as in he couldn't even get the concept, was hubris.

He thought everyone of his decisions was not only the right decision, but the perfect decision of which no other options could even be considered against.

Also, the Emperor is not kind of a god now. He is a god. Full stop. Worship makes one into gods in the 40k universe, and he has more worshipers than anyone else.

He was not a god when he was walking around, but it was getting close. His apotheosis had nothing to do with his psychic abilities either. It wouldn't have mattered if he had the psychic powers of a rock if he were being worshiped by quadrillions of devout humans.

I didn't know that there was a book where the thoughts of The Emperor were clearly laid out! Oh right, there's not. All of the above is an interpretation. Until we see it from The Emperor's point of view, then we really have no idea what he was thinking.

iproxtaco wrote:I didn't know that there was a book where the thoughts of The Emperor were clearly laid out! Oh right, there's not. All of the above is an interpretation. Until we see it from The Emperor's point of view, then we really have no idea what he was thinking.

There is. Tales of Heresy.

Which after having read them two days ago, doesn't actually.


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Unless of course you can convince me that it does, I'm open to persuasion.

But seriously, I've often wondered about this.

The Last Church lays out some of his goals/methods pretty clearly.

Pretty sure he saw himself as the guide of humanity, and his way was the right way, most of the time.

iproxtaco wrote:Which after having read them two days ago, doesn't actually.


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Unless of course you can convince me that it does, I'm open to persuasion.

daedalus-templarius wrote:The Last Church lays out some of his goals/methods pretty clearly.

Pretty sure he saw himself as the guide of humanity, and his way was the right way, most of the time.

Yes, if you've read The Last Church I don't see how you can be unclear about his views. He straight up tells you.

Hmm he tells one man a small portion of his beliefs, or sets them out in one particular way. I don't know if that's the whole truth, could a mortal comprehend the Emperor's knowledge?

That's not really an answer though. Yes, he says things in the story, but there is no source for as to WHY he chose to do certain things which lead to his mistakes.

Miracle- No, I don't think a mortal can comprehend the Emperor. That's why I liked Legion so much. John Grammaticus functions as an intermediary for us to comprehend the Emperor. John himself is a psyker of such ability that he is within the bounds of human comprehension, but only just. Likewise, the Emperor is as advanced to John as John is to normal men. Thus, John is able to relate a little of what the Emperor is like to normal, mundane humans (in this case, the readers).

The choice of Dan Abnett to describe the Primarchs/Emperor without actually getting inside their heads is a good decision. It keeps that mystery alive, and allows the inclusion of characters that think in such a way as to be beyond the cognitive abilities of the readers. It makes them seem more than human, which they are. Books like Fulgrim, on the other hand, try to present the story from the Primarch's point of view, which humanizes them too much and diminishes them.

Again, these are just my opinions.

Jimsolo wrote:
The choice of Dan Abnett to describe the Primarchs/Emperor without actually getting inside their heads is a good decision. It keeps that mystery alive, and allows the inclusion of characters that think in such a way as to be beyond the cognitive abilities of the readers. It makes them seem more than human, which they are. Books like Fulgrim, on the other hand, try to present the story from the Primarch's point of view, which humanizes them too much and diminishes them.

I'd agree with that.

The First Heretic is likewise, not good at making the Primarchs seem, well, like Primarchs. I'd have to say that A Thousand Sons does a better job, as does the First Three HH novels.

Good point though, we haven't actually seen inside The Emperor's thoughts, it's all from the perspective of another person.

Gotta say the last church was a damn good read.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:He rejected all religon including the worship of him.
He became diefied because The Imperium is powered by irony.

Lol, I think Life is powered by Irony.

Vulpes89 wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:He rejected all religon including the worship of him.
He became diefied because The Imperium is powered by irony.

Lol, I think Life is powered by Irony.

Indeed it may be.

The entire setting is powered by Irony, GW could be a bit more subtle. I dare you to tell me one major plot device that isn't Ironic in some way.

romegamer wrote:Did the emporer reject the idea of himself being worshiped as a god during his own time, similar to TheBuddha? or did he style himself as a religious messiah? If he did reject it, how did he come to be diefied?

He came to be that way because of his people. When you see someone do all that, you can't help buy think if he is really something more than Human.
Look at this way, Jesus was probably one man who wanted to help. And who wanted for Mankind to change. The Romans And Jews killed him, but his followers made a legend of him.
Same thing happened to the Emperor, only difference is:

1. He is still alive, sorta...
2. There are living witnesses from that era who told the story to their followers who know full truth ( Space Marines ).

In a mirror.

snake wrote:In a mirror.

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Brilliant!