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If Thawn is the target of the DE Hex rifle, is he permanetly dead or does he still get to use his 4+ "I shall not yield"?

It depends on if "Removed from Play" = "Removed as a Casualty". I think in most instances, the two are not interchangeable and he would therefore not get his 4+ roll.

i don't know.

Thawns rule says place a marker where he was. on a 4+ he comes back.

Grey Templar wrote:i don't know.

Thawns rule says place a marker where he was. on a 4+ he comes back.

Right. After being "removed as a casualty". He wasn't. He was simply "Removed from Play". The real question is if those two things mean the same thing in game terms.

i would think that they do mean the same thing.



I only say this because it doesn't come into conflict with things like WBB(which only works against wounds caused)

another potential problem is Kill Points. you didn't kill him, just removed from play. he isn't "dead" at the end of the game.

Now you guys know why I posted this question, lol. I am hoping to find some definative answer to this.

Its a tough one.

I can't find my GK codex for some reason so thats messing things up.



I would discuss it with your opponent and decide.


personally, I would let Thawn come back. he costs alot of points for a 1 wound model so he isn't that hard to put down.

Perma-dead; He is not "killed out-right", nor "Suffers ID", nor "removed as a casualty"; he is "removed from play" which means nothing can bring him back.

on the plus side, unless you allocated the hexrifle wound specifically to him, or had already been killed once and returned then the hexrifle cannot specifically target him, just put it on a member of his unit.

Kommissar Kel wrote:
on the plus side, unless you allocated the hexrifle wound specifically to him, or had already been killed once and returned then the hexrifle cannot specifically target him, just put it on a member of his unit.

Unless he's already been killed once and brought back, as he becomes a single-model unit in his own right.

i'd say no. a similar instance is a necron being shot, and they are allowed to have their WBB, so why can't Thawn?

puma713 wrote:

Kommissar Kel wrote:
on the plus side, unless you allocated the hexrifle wound specifically to him, or had already been killed once and returned then the hexrifle cannot specifically target him, just put it on a member of his unit.

Unless he's already been killed once and brought back, as he becomes a single-model unit in his own right.

Highlighted where I already said that for you.

Kommissar Kel wrote:

puma713 wrote:

Kommissar Kel wrote:
on the plus side, unless you allocated the hexrifle wound specifically to him, or had already been killed once and returned then the hexrifle cannot specifically target him, just put it on a member of his unit.

Unless he's already been killed once and brought back, as he becomes a single-model unit in his own right.

Highlighted where I already said that for you.

Doh!!

Hmm...

The hexrifle causes a characteristic test after an unsaved wound is caused.
But once the unsaved wound is caused, Thawn is laid down, does he still have to take a characteristic test as he is essentially "dead" already?

interesting point,


thawns already dead and has been removed as a casuality. only the marker remains.

Grey Templar wrote:interesting point,


thawns already dead and has been removed as a casuality. only the marker remains.

Thats my contention and reason for this whole question.

From what I've experienced, "Removed from play" means that they are actually removed from all aspects of the game, whereas "Removed as a casualty" implies that they are still able to come back somehow, so no, Thawn wouldn't get to come back if he was killed by a Hexrifle.

Valkyrie wrote:Thawn wouldn't get to come back if he was killed by a Hexrifle.

Its not an automatic failure, you need to take a test, but that test is taken aften the wound is suffered and Thawn is removed as a casualty. So do you still take the test after being removed as a casualty?

Hmm, I would say no. He isn't able to interact in the game until he returns.

So... the following would happen?

Thawn is hit by a Hexrifle round.
Thawn is wounded.
Thawn fails his save and is removed as a casualty, he is left on his side as a marker.
Thawn is required to take a characteristic test or be removed from play.
Thawn has been removed as a casualty so cannot take a test.
Thawn can do his "I wanna be a necron" thing next turn.

As above

By the time he gets to take the characteristic test, hes already dead and isnt eligible to take the test.

Why would the hexrifle wait for the unsaved wound to be fully resolved?

The steps for resolving wounds does not have you removing models as casualties the moment they suffer any unsaved wounds(that would make having multiple wounds pointless); such an idea would also negate any use of FNP; since even if you decided last wound taken and unsaved = immediate removal as a casualty then their would be no time to let FNP kick in. Is this what you all are suggesting?

Taking Saves, and Removing casualties are 2 different steps in the Attack resolution process; various abilities can, and will kick in between these steps. Many of these abilities will either negate the Failed save, or make the Wound much, much worse; Hexrifle Special rules are one of the Latter.

If you take an unsaved wound from a hexrifle it's ability kicks in before you finish resolving that wound; and would most likely kick in after any available Abilities/Rules that could negate the wound(again see FNP).

FnP is taken upon failing an armor save and before resolving the lost wound.


Thawn doesn't have FnP and so the next step is his death, removal from the table, and the placing of the marker.


the Hex Rifle resolves after an unsaved wound has been caused. however, Thawn has been removed as a casuality and isn't around to take the test. so he gets to come back next turn.

No, when thrawn is removed as a casualty he leaves a marker; Hex rifles interrupt the Wound process before removal as a casualty in exactly the same way that FNP does.

Hit is made.
Wound is caused.
Save is failed or denied.
Wounds test is taken.
Model is removed, either from play, or as a casualty.

The same set of operations exist with FNP:
Hit is made.
Wound is caused.
Save is failed or denied(but denied in such a way as to still allow FNP).
FNP save is taken.
Model is unaffected by wound, or takes the wound and removed as a casualty.

You cannot decide that FNP works fine, because you like that rule, but then deny Hex rifles from working just because you don't like what they do. It is either Both effects interrupt and trigger before remove as a casualty, or neither do(and thus FNP is a useless rule on single wound models, Sorry Plague marines).

One issue to this dicussion is that Thawn has 1 wound. If he loses that wound, his is a casualty that is removed from the table. The wording if the Hexrifle implies that its effects take place after the wound has been resolved, which on a multi-wound model would still leave the model open for removal from play if the Hexrifle effect kicks in. But for a single-wound model? Thawn is not the only instance I can think of where a single-wound model may return to play after being "removed as a casualty", as we have Necron units with WBB.

How does the Hexrifles ability interact with WBB?

SJ

one could argue it works against necrons because you don't remove the Necron untill the WBB roll is made. you simply lay the model down.

with Thawn, you place a marker while removing his model.



the Hex Rifle test takes place after wounds have been resolved and saved. at which point Thawn doesn't exist anymore.



I would say the only things which can remove Thawn from the game are Vortex Grenades and Jaws. Jaws causes a characteristic test, but no wounds which would kill him before the test takes place. the Vortex grenade simply removes from play.

Grey Templar wrote:I would say the only things which can remove Thawn from the game are Vortex Grenades and Jaws. Jaws causes a characteristic test, but no wounds which would kill him before the test takes place. the Vortex grenade simply removes from play.

Don't forget the Shokk Attack Gun.

Grey Templar wrote:with Thawn, you place a marker while removing his model.



the Hex Rifle test takes place after wounds have been resolved and saved. at which point Thawn doesn't exist anymore.



I would say the only things which can remove Thawn from the game are Vortex Grenades and Jaws. Jaws causes a characteristic test, but no wounds which would kill him before the test takes place. the Vortex grenade simply removes from play.

Stop it.

Just Stop it.

You have shown no rules nor reason for this baseless opinion, an opinion which is flatly wrong.

Allow me to show you, through rules, why you are wrong:

We will start with the Hex Rifle, DE Codex, Page 61; we all know what it does so I will be focusing on the trigger for the effect:
"A model that suffers an unsaved wound from a Hexrifle..."

Now let's move on to Feel no Pain, BRB, page 75, second sentence; again I am only focusing on the trigger since we all know what it does:
"If a model with this ability suffers an unsaved wound..."

Hey, will you look at that, the exact same trigger, why that must mean that both abilities trigger at the same time, and since FNP removes the unsaved wound and occurs before the model is removed as a casualty, then so must the hexrifle.

Either that or FNP now no longer works on 1W models nor the final wound on any multi-wound models.

Failing a save does not immediately remove a model as a casualty. That is the next step as a general rule, yes; but special rules can, and will, interrupt that process.

No need to be rude, that only makes you look like a D-bag.



it really doesn't matter.


Thawn is dead immediatly because he has no FnP to stop the sequence of events.


the Hex rifle requires the model to still be around to take the test. Thawn is gone and isn't required to take the test.

Thrawn not having FNP does not matter.

FNP has the same Trigger that is why I ever mentioned it.

The Hexrifle ability to remove models from play happens before they would be removed as a casualty, just the same way as FNP ignores the wound before the model would be removed as a casualty.

Thrawn would never be removed as a casualty(well, excepting that 1 in 6 times that you manage to roll a 1 on his Wounds test) because as soon as he fails his armor save(or has it denied via a rending wound), he must then take a Wounds test.

If you want to make the claim that Thrawn is gone kindly quote me some rules in support of your assertion, I have quoted you my reasoning via rules interactions. Also if you decide that Thrawn(or any other 1W model, or model with only 1 wound left) gets removed as a casualty prior to the hexrifle's ability coming into effect, then you must play FNP the same way.

No,

without FnP, you are dead immediatly.

FnP stops the action and means you are alive for a little longer to resolve the FnP.



the Hex Rifle, causes a wound. thawn fails his saves and dies.

once Thawn fails that save he is down. FnP would mean he is still around.



the Hex Rifle doesn't keep Thawn around like FnP does.

they may have the same trigger, but with one Thawn would be sticking around. with the other he is gone before the action is taken.




FnP is special. it happens in that time between the model failing the save and actually losing the wound.

the Hex Rifle requires that save to have been failed and the wound to have been taken. FnP would count as a save for the purposes of the Hex Rifle. if you passed your FnP save against a Hex Rifle you would not be required to take the test as you saved the wound.