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Hey Guys

Me and a couple of friends from my local games club are attempting to set up our own model store in a relatively small town called Wisbech.
There is another small hobby store in town, but our store will hopefully be in a better position and have a more varied stock of models, while the other store is a normal toy shop as well as a model stockist.

Unfortunately we are having problems with profit loss diagrams and such , and would like to know if there is anyone on dakka who would be able to help by providing me with the relevant information about average sales etc.

I would also like to know if people would prefer to go to a small store like ours to buy their models, and play games. Or go to somewhere like GW.

Thanks to you all in advance

LazzurusMan

Be prepared for an extremely hard time.

Also, small town...three men running a store? Hate to say it, but you'd do better with just a couple of people, perhaps even one full time and one part time.

No idea about profit thingys, way outside my realm of expertise, but you might want to also investigate an online store, to run at the same time as the store. Opens up your market, and might be just the thing to squeak you through the early years.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, on the GW subject, depends entirely upon your facilities. If you have room to offer snacks and drinks, that's one up on what GW stores offer, and again, more money in your pocket.

From my (very limited I'll admit) experience, most stores go belly up when they overstock. You know, they start off well, and just keep adding new games. Probably best to stock just two or three ranges (say, GW, PP and FoW for popularities sake). But, if at all possible, find a distributor who is happy to allow small scale orders. That way, you can order in anything anyone might want, without worrying about stock you cannot shift.

Most of all, think about what you want from a gaming store, then think about impact/urgency. Draw a standard x/y axis graph, and start with something easy. This goes in the middle. Everything else, and this is the hard party, which requires a lot of honesty, gets plotted in amongst it. Something might have a great deal of impact, but would take a while, and money, to sort out (say, lots and lots of varied terrain). Others such as gaming boards, are probably higher up on both, as without a board, you cannot demo. Without a demo, you won't recruit. So whilst it might be just as cost and labour intensive as terrain, it's more of a core requirement, especially if you're looking at challenging a local GW (no idea where Wisbech is I'm afraid, so sticking with general comments).

There's a series of articles on RPG.net by a game store owner taking about the business that should probably be required reading.

For snacks/drinks, make sure it's legal in your area. Most places are OK with selling packaged/canned stuff, but best to make sure.

Expect everything to cost more and take longer than your estimate.

It's not GW you have to worry about - its the online discounters. In general, any mass market product (MTG, GW figures) can be picked up online for discounts you can't match as a small volume brick and mortar store. When choosing your inventory, pick products which have added value in being purchased in your store. If that means running fee driven events or creating your own product, I can't say. In any case, good luck.

Thanks guys, we've decided not to do snacks drinks etc as that will create too much mess, which is why GW don't do it.
There will be three people running it so we can allways have at least two people in store at all times, 1 to sell things, 1 to help with gaming etc. It may be a smallish town, but it will be a good sized store

We are planning on going online once the store is set up and we can get the online "space"

Thanks again guys

Even in the large town of Bristol the main Wargaming Shop only has two employees.

I have a feeling that any more and things will get very thin.

If you're going to have a big(ish) premises then I'd seriously reconsider your decision not to stock food & drinks. You can whack a couple of chairs around a table in a corner and call it a food zone or whatever if the mess is your concern.

The mark-up on a cup of tea/coffee (get a kettle) and cans of pop and the likes are just too good to turn down! People are going to want to eat and drink, you may as well have their coins in your pocket rather than sending them away somewhere to eat. Keeps them in there longer, too.

A very close friend of mine is setting up a shop in our local area currently and there's a bunch of us pooling ideas for him, this is something that we've all decided is imperative.

Okay, i'll talk to the others about stocking food and drink, but having three of us is a bit of a must as we're gonna become a lmited liability partnership/company, and 3 people helps with that

I urge you to consider staffing.

Minimum wage is around £13,000. Now, paying one member of staff should be pretty doable. Two, well, that's kind of pushing it, but not out of the question. With three of you, that's £39,000 profit you need, per year, without any other considerations.

We're not staff, we're business partners, we would be splitting the proffits between us

LazzurusMan wrote:We're not staff, we're business partners, we would be splitting the proffits between us

Profits!? What profits - this is a game store you're talking about

I've done what you are talking about. My store had 5 partners - 1 worked full time in the store & 4 worked real jobs & picked up hours in the store when possible. Its rather easy for one man to run the shop most of the time. Traffic during the day is slow - 1 staff is all you need. They wills spend time ordering, stocking and taking care of the place. Early evening & weekends is when a second staff member is needed - just about the same time guys working a 9-5 job will be getting out.

Make sure you do your homework on this - understand the economics of the area you're looking at, research the customer base - are there local gaming groups you can attract in, any scope for running sponsored events... What about the B&M? Is it going to be a small store with space for display only or a full on gaming mecca with several large gaming tables and a painting zone?

Look at the competition - what they do, how they do it. Most other retailers are more than happy to speak about there own experiences, so if you can, I'd advice contacting and visiting the likes of Maelstrom and Wayland.

The easiest part is an online presence and would probably be the best place to dip your toes in the water by setting something up - you might even want to think about an eBay shop or similar. Costs of setting these up are tiny compared to a B&M - can be run from a spare room or garage whilst you.

I would advice though that you tread carefully when going into bsiness with friends, set the ground rules and make sure there's a legal binding contract between you all. Money can bring the worst out in people unfortunately...

Good luck whatever you do, it's a long hard road...

And the more you have, the less you'll make. That is my entire point.

And what happens if there is no profit (highly likely in the first couple of years). Do you apportion blame and the debt? Are you going in equally etc?

Is this going to be purely a (wargames/GRP) gaming store?
The other store you mention probably has the better idea of selling toys and some games.
Is your store a games store, with something?

If there are 3 of you, did any of you want to run some other type of store, but joined up anyway?
Get a sideline.
Even if it is general modelling goods, like plaster, airbrushes, balsa wood, etc. Most of the better gaming shops I've been in has a corner set aside with non-gaming stuff.
A bit like the food/drinks, but not as general.

One thought, see what your suppliers can get for you. If you can get the sideline from your normal supplier, that might get you better discounts on your main line of stock.

And, good luck. We need more games stores.

LazzurusMan wrote:Thanks guys, we've decided not to do snacks drinks etc as that will create too much mess, which is why GW don't do it.
There will be three people running it so we can allways have at least two people in store at all times, 1 to sell things, 1 to help with gaming etc. It may be a smallish town, but it will be a good sized store

We are planning on going online once the store is set up and we can get the online "space"

Thanks again guys

I second the notion that you read the series of articles by Lloyd Brown on RPG.net about starting a gamestore. Also, there is a series of articles for years by the owner of Titan Games (Marcus Brown) that are quite helpful. Did you know that by not selling snacks you're getting rid of one of the highest profit margins you can earn in your store? The markup you can get on snacks and drinks is double that for most gaming products (albeit a smaller total purchase).

http://www.rpg.net/columns/list-column.phtml?colname=businessofgamingretail

http://www.rpg.net/columns/list-column.phtml?colname=counter

LazzurusMan wrote:We're not staff, we're business partners, we would be splitting the proffits between us

You all still need to eat. Have you put together even a simple profit and loss model to estimate what your operating expenses will look like (e.g., rent, insurance, supplies, your salaries, utilities, etc). On top of that, you're going to have some up front costs such as initial stockage, displays and racks, tables, signage, etc. If nothing else, you and your two buddies need to sit down and have an honest discussion about what this is going to take to get it off the ground.

Also, be honest about your motivations. Is this a true opportunity to make a living or is this really an avenue for the 3 of you to get miniatures cheaper. I've seen too many hobbyists get into the business for that very reason, and end up running a store that caters to themselves and their friends only, and ultimately fail.

One person you should PM is Mikhalia.

Read the RPGnet articles and also listen to the gama trade show seminar podcasts. There's tons of info in those podcasts, even the ones from a couple years ago are still great.

Don't expect to make any money for a few years, and plan your lives accordlingly. Keep your day jobs and take turns at the store on the side maybe? Unless you have a ton of cash going into it, enough to support your salaries and the store for the next 2 years. When I was planning to open a store, the most generous sales projections had me not even breaking even till around 12-16 months into it. Which is one of the big reasons I didn't move forward, cuz I wouldn't have had enough capital to pay myself and pay for the store for that long.

The best mistakes to learn from are somebody else's.
Dunno who said that, but they are words to live by.

Not really suggestions - I only have the following experiences to communicate.

1. I worked in a hobby (model) shop back in the 90s right when it was a startup. Sales were TERRIBLE - I think my best day cleared $250 and that was before Christmas. There were days where we made negative money - i.e. no sales, 1 return. This was the proprietor's second startup - and he had a full-time job on the side - (his former store was successful but he had to close it when his full-time job relocated). He imparted some wisdom unto me:

(a) Expect to lose money the first year. This is normal. If you don't turn this around in the second year, it's probably never going to fly.

(b) Establish a hook to bring people into the store. In his case, he was selling cheap MTG as a hook to get traffic.

(c) Always open on time and keep the place clean and tidy! Nothing pisses off potential customers like showing up during operating hours and finding that the store is closed. If the store must positively be closed, put a sign which indicates the reason and the expected time of return. A dirty and untidy store stops customers from even entering - and should they enter, it prevents them from browsing.

All-in-all - pretty common sense gak, but was pretty informative to me at the time.

2. I once lived in a smaller market - and by smaller, I mean ~75k people. The new Game Store startup turned out to be a pretty good example of what not to do:

(a) Did not do sufficient research into suppliers. They relied upon too few suppliers. As a result - Resupply was slow. Special orders were slow - sometimes non-existent.

(b) Did not do enough research into the market. Assumed that the average gamer liked the same crap that they did. Also bought into supplier hype and stocked some questionable product that didn't move. GW sold him the "Tier 3" package, which meant that he was stuck with a gak-load of LOTR and Fantasy which didn't move at all. IMHO, in a small market - the paint rack is a good start, but for the rest of the stuff, pick and choose is better than buying the prepackaged intro-stock that GW recommends. Anyhow, huge glut of non-moving stock killed his cash-flow making restocks really difficult. Eventually decided to feel out the customer base by offering discounts on special orders, however, poor supplier contacts hindered this as well.

(c) Customer engagement was gak. Events were run sporadically, but not advertised. Customer requests for regular stock of certain product was largely ignored - and I don't mean niche items or hard to get items... I mean mainstream items like MTG! The store had no standardized gaming nights for the first 18 months of operation... once they set up gaming nights - they didn't advertise them. They didn't leverage the local independent gaming club - in fact, they signed up on the local club's board, then proceeded to not monitor it - months at a time. The club would run tournaments and the store would not know about it.

That's my 2 cents. Its a hard business alright. Good luck to you.

I think point (c) above was the biggest nail in that coffin. Want to sell something, got to promote it. How is up to you, you'll learn what your local market likes soon enough. But you have to do it!

Mr Mystery wrote:I think point (c) above was the biggest nail in that coffin. Want to sell something, got to promote it. How is up to you, you'll learn what your local market likes soon enough. But you have to do it!

WARNING... DO THE BOLDED PART IN THE QUOTE FIRST, OR YOU WILL BE SORRY!

No amount of promotion will sell something that your customers are not interested in.

This is where it gets hillarious. He wanted to sell FANTASY. He LOVED Fantasy. He did lots to PROMOTE FANTASY - had a Skull Pass painted (replaced with Island of Blood) - ran demos... etc. The local crowd couldn't give 2 gaks about Fantasy. They went in and cleaned out his stock of 40k. The huge glut of Fantasy killed his cash flow and filled his shelves. 40k got zero promotion - no painted starter - nothing. The guy didn't even know (or care to know) the rules!

one other thing.. don't go into it thinking you're gonna have the best 40k store ever. If everyone that comes into your store wants to buy pogs, you're gonna have to become a pog store. In other words don't fill up your store with what you like. I would do more of a mixed bag to start with, and restock/add new stock based on what is selling more. Gotta gage your customer interest and sell what they want, not what you want.

3 points.
1) Decide NOW, before anything is finalized, who is the Boss. Groupthink is ok for some things but not for running a store. The others can make suggestions but with three people, there is going to be a lot of two vs one decision making. One person having final say, while truely listening to input from the others, helps keep things running smoother.

2) Take a good look around, especially in other shops that carry similar items. Not just the one place that will be your competition, but other shops that sell small quantities of toys/models. See if you can get the owner/manager to talk about what is and is not selling.

3) Consider having a small area for model train bits. maybe one or two "starter sets", but more importantly, layout accessories. Woodland Scenics makes tons of material that can be used for basing including flocks, static grasses, and a variety of stones and trees. You may be surprised by folks who cannot find that kind of thing in most small towns.

Having a boss/majority owner is probably a good idea. Me and the girlfriend watch way too much of Gordon Ramsey's Kitchen Nightmares show and there's a lot of restaurants that have problems because this isn't clear.

That show made me pretty confident that I want nothing to do with actually running a retail business of any sort.

Kitchen Nightmares is effin' great. If Ramsay ever walked into a stereotypical game store his head would probably explode in a shower of gore...

"Look at this place... ITS ABSOLUTELY FILTHY! You ought to be ashamed of yourself. Look at this... disgusting. And what is with that smell? When was the last time you vacuumed? Dear God man, YOUR CUSTOMERS ARE PLAYING ON THIS."

keezus wrote:Kitchen Nightmares is effin' great. If Ramsay ever walked into a stereotypical game store his head would probably explode in a shower of gore...

"Look at this place... ITS ABSOLUTELY FILTHY! You ought to be ashamed of yourself. Look at this... disgusting. And what is with that smell? When was the last time you vacuumed? Dear God man, YOUR CUSTOMERS ARE PLAYING ON THIS."

"YOU SERVED ME D6 FROM THIS! FROM THIS BLOODY DUSTY, OLD, GAMING BOX! THIS IS HOW YOU TREAT PEOPLE THAT ARE PAYING YOU MONEY?!"

From what I can tell, the number one reason start-up games stores fail is:

Being YOUR store instead of serving your customers.
Make sure you are not creating this store because you think it will be a great place to game or buy your stuff from.
Make sure you are ordering the products your customers want, not just what you want.
Make sure you get rid of product that is not working for you.

As others have said, try to stock snacks if you are having a gaming area, but perhaps ahve a separate eating area.
Per square foot of floor space, your most profitable lines will probably be MTG, other CCG's, Paints, Dice, Accessories, Snacks. Stocking comprehensive lines of boxed miniatures (or worse, board games) will chew through your floor space. With this in mind, think of space-saving ways to stock your products: carousels for blister packs especially.
Make sure you are intimately familiar with the local historical gaming scene before you start stocking any of those ranges. To quote rpg.net:

the first day you're open, somebody will walk out empty-handed because you don't have a pack of left-handed Maccabean javelineers in 15 mm. The product selection available for this category is enormous, and the customer needs are specific.

Try to sign up with distributors for all your lesser product lines (and a few of your major ones) to save yourself time. 5 minutes on the phone/email to each of 50 companies and you've lost half a day.

3 partners? That's scary tbh. It's hard enough to make the right decisions when your your own boss.

As pointed above. Buy what the local market wants. If they only play 40k, only buy 40k. And as you grow you might be able to add other games as your customer base builds.

Serve snacks. Having snacks and food keep people in store longer. More time for resistance to break and impulse buys to occur. If your worried about messes from it, the. Your in trouble already, as you should be expecting to spend an hour a day at the start cleaning, minimum

http://forums.delphiforums.com/gamestore/start

Hi,
I'm Mike Clark, owner of Showcase Comics. I've run two stores in Philadelphia for the last couple of decades. You're best place to get some information on getting started is the Game Store Resources Forums. It's on the Delphi Forums system. It's open to anyone and focuses on answering questions of prospective game store owners. Once you get open, a good retailer forum is the Game Pro Symposium:

http://forums.delphiforums.com/gamestore/start


On the GSRF you can post your plans, and we'll rip them to shreds, tell you why it won't work, bruise your ego, and then help you build a better plan. You'll get free advice from the guys in the Trenches, and hopefully you can learn from our mistakes and not repeat them.

It's probably easier to start a gaming company than it is to run a store.

I appreciate that this is obviously something you guys want to do, but I can't help wondering if now, is the right time to do it.

Delephont wrote:It's probably easier to start a gaming company than it is to run a store.

Definitely. A gaming company can go quite a while with pretty much zero expenses. Nowadays with PoD you don't even need to buy lot of books up-front if you want to sell real books.

Delephont wrote:I appreciate that this is obviously something you guys want to do, but I can't help wondering if now, is the right time to do it.

It's a mixed bag, i guess. People are spending less on some things, but I don't know if hobbies like gaming are really one of them. I wonder if the younger market is spending less, but the adults are steady or increasing as it's cheaper to spend $200 on a new wargame than spend five times that on a vacation...

On the other hand, it's a great time to sign a lease on retail space, as the market is flooded (at least locally).

It seems like the biggest issue is that a store needs to be more than a 'place to buy games' these days due to competition from the internet vendors. I wonder what a store would need to due to offer similar (not identical, but similar) discounts (maybe 10% instead of 20%, etc.) and make it up on 'other services' like snacks, etc.?