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Basicly, what i'm asking is= does grotsnik force the unit he's with to run instead of shoot??

No, Grotsnik's unit may still shoot. Grotsnik's bloodlust only forces you to move towards the nearest enemy during your movement phase, and then assault if possible. However, if you CHOOSE to run with Grotsnik's unit, it would have to run towards the nearest enemy.

Grotsnik's rules don't refer solely to the movement phase at all. They simply require you to move as fast as possible towards the enemy.

As such, I see no reason that shouldn't include running at every opportunity.

as fast as possible seems to make them run at the enemy...

They have to get to the enemy as fast as possible, so running is included. Silly Dok Grotsnik!

-cgmckenzie

Sounds somewhat like Glory Hogs, in that it doesn't specifically say that they must or can't run, (for the Skalpel and Glory rules, respectively) but use language that implies that the Shooting phase must be used a specific way.

With Glory Hogs, the Bustas must shoot their Rokkits at the vehicle, even if they're within Waaagh!! range, and have a better chance of wrecking the vehicle with their Tankbusta bombs. With Grotsnik, it says he must move as fast as possible. Since it doesn't specify 'during the Move phase', and in 5th edition, you can move during the Shooting phase, that suggests that he must move with his unit during the Shooting phase, as well as the Move phase.

Not to split hairs too much, but do you only move in the moving phase? You run in the shooting phase. Does Running technically count as movement?

Flinty wrote: Does Running technically count as movement?

Why wouldn't it?

Because this is discussion on a GW rule, and that means that every single word must have been carefully picked out, to mean exactly what that single word means, and no more!

"Running" =\= "Movement", after all- they clearly have a different number of letters, and they're not spelled the same!

That's not particularly constructive...

I think the point may be that running does not follow some of the special rules for movement, such as it is in a different phase, is not effected by difficult terrain, is random, disallows a unit from shooting etc

Since it doesn't specify 'during the Move phase', and in 5th edition, you can move during the Shooting phase, that suggests that he must move with his unit during the Shooting phase, as well as the Move phase.

Codex Orks is a 4th edition codex. The 'Run' move did not exist in 4th edition so it's only through lax wording and not necessarily the author's intention that Grotsnik has to run during the Shooting phase.

And gw hasn't FAQd this? Gah!

It's the small things like this and tankbustas npt allowed to run if no vehicle is clearly in range that REALLY breaks the ork dex for me....

Ghaz wrote:

Since it doesn't specify 'during the Move phase', and in 5th edition, you can move during the Shooting phase, that suggests that he must move with his unit during the Shooting phase, as well as the Move phase.

Codex Orks is a 4th edition codex. The 'Run' move did not exist in 4th edition so it's only through lax wording and not necessarily the author's intention that Grotsnik has to run during the Shooting phase.

The thing is, this isnt 4th, this is 5th. 5th doesnt care that in 4th not everyone ran. But since 5th allows everyone to run, and move + run = as fast as possible, then Id say nope, any unit with the dok, cant shoot, because they are running.

KingCracker wrote:

Ghaz wrote:

Since it doesn't specify 'during the Move phase', and in 5th edition, you can move during the Shooting phase, that suggests that he must move with his unit during the Shooting phase, as well as the Move phase.

Codex Orks is a 4th edition codex. The 'Run' move did not exist in 4th edition so it's only through lax wording and not necessarily the author's intention that Grotsnik has to run during the Shooting phase.

The thing is, this isnt 4th, this is 5th. 5th doesnt care that in 4th not everyone ran. But since 5th allows everyone to run, and move + run = as fast as possible, then Id say nope, any unit with the dok, cant shoot, because they are running.

In this instance it does matter. Dok's rule states he must move as fast as possible to the nearest enemy unit and assault it if possible. If Dok is forced to run then he cannot assault but once per game, via Waaagh!; he will be in a perpetual run mode unable to assault ANY unit. If Dok isn't forced to run, then he can still move and assault, as stated in the codex.

Unless he can ALWAYS run and assault

terranarc wrote:Unless he can ALWAYS run and assault

Which he can't.

Actually, it says moving as fast as he can towards the enemy, assaulting IF possible. So, assaulting isn't a needed requirement. If you run, it isn't possible for him to assault, so you must wait until next turn to do so.

Seems like a really bad character to bring along now.

-cgmckenzie

Sometimes the "spirit" of the rule matters, even in GW's own words. Read the Ork FAQ. It mentions whether or not Grotsnik can board a vehicle if doing so gets him closer to a unit.

The FAQ clearly states that the spirit of Grotsnik's rule is that he must always move towards the nearest enemy and try to assault.

If you have a squad of Space Marines 8 inches away from Grotsnik, the rule does NOT mean that you are forced to move 6 inches forward in the movement phase, and then since you cannot shoot, you must now run an additional 1 inch in shooting phase, and now you cannot assault.

The spirit of the rule is that Grotsnik must always move as fast as possible to the enemy and assault. IF you run, you must run towards the enemy and assault. You are not FORCED to run though.

If Grotsnik is forced to run, he can never assault except when a WAAGGH is declared; which is stupid, and obviously not in the spirit of the rule.

It seems pretty obvious that such a stupid interpretation is obviously NOT how the rule is meant to be played, regardless of its poor wording.

Grotsnik can shoot. This is 4th edition rules applied to 5th edition codex word jumbling.

If that is the case a Mob with Grotsnik would only get one assault per game, the turn a Waaagh! is called (maybe more often if you have a Wierdboy). If he had to move towards the enemy every opportunity then it will be impossible for his Mob to ever assault. By the logic displayed here so far even if every boy in the entire Mob was 1" away he'd still have to roll a run move and go 0" if he is that close.

edit ninjad by Murrdox. Well said.

** removed double post **

I would play it where he has to run until within 12 inches, move, shoot, then assault. If his unit has weapons with longer ranges than his slugga, they don't get to shoot them, so attach him to a unit of boys with sluggas and choppas.

This is one of the problems with playing 4th ed codex in 5th ed ruleset.

-cgmckenzie

So you break the rules when convenient? I attach him to a Mob of Shoota boyz or put a Big Shoot in the mob and by your reasoning I'd only have to run if outside of 18" or 36".

The way I read it is "if" the mob moves it must end closer to the enemy and "if" they run they must run closer to the enemy.

It wouldn't necessarily be breaking the rules. GW have ruled in the past on similar rules that if a compulsory action is required, you can't perform an earlier action that would prevent you from doing it...

So once Grotsnik is within assault range, you would not have to run... he is covered by the 'assault if possible' clause at that point.

Of course, that leaves the same problem that there has always been with that sort of situation, which is that you're left having to measure a distance between units at a point in the game where you're technically not allowed to.

Although not RAW i think it is clear the rule is supposed to resemble rage which states you do not have to run but if you choose to you must run towards the nearest enemy.

Like i said, not RAW but it's how i would play it