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Hi. Me and two of my friends are starting tabletop together, and I've been looking into armies for space marines. One of my friends is going orks, (the other eldar) so we're going halfsies on the black reach set. I've come up with a couple of armies. Let me know what you think of these 2 armies I've made up. Be gentle (also, they're going to field mostly infantry, in the beginning).

ARMY 1 (Raven Guard)

tactical squad 185 total
-5 marines
-flamer
-sergeant with combi melta, plasma, flamer?
-plasma cannon

captain shrike 195

vanguard veteran squad 275 total
-5 jump packs
-6 lightning claws
-sergeant with power fist

terminator squad 230
-assault cannon or cyclone?

dreadnought 115
-plasma cannon


-------------------------------------------
ARMY 2 (Undecided on chapter)

tactical 185 total
-+5 marines
-flamer
-plasma cannon
-combi-melta, plasma, or flamer?

terminator 230 total
-cyclone or assault cannon?

chaplain 130 total
-plasma pistol
-jet pack

assault squad 260 total
-+5 marines
-2 plasma pistols
-sergeant power fist
-sergeant plasma pistol or combat shield

whirlwind 85 total

predator 110 total
-heavy bolter sponsons
-storm bolter
-extra armor

are you using the standard FOA because there aren't enough troops in either of the lists

Yeah basically you need two tactical squads. If you want to make a legal list with the black reach set, you have to take two squads of five tactical marines.

Some general pointers:
-Extra armour on vehicles is almost invariably useless. It's a 1 in 6 chance on a damage result and doesn't even matter most of the time. A shooting tank doesn't care because it's still shaken and can't fire. Only two kinds of vehicles even benefit, transports and close-range tanks that want to avoid autohits in melee. The predator isn't of either type.

-Extra storm bolters on vehicles are almost invariably useless. Your predator could make decent use of it since it meshes with its anti-personnel role, but ideally you want to keep more than 24" away and it's usually not going to be worth the X points. Some people take them on rhinos and other transports so it takes another weapon destroyed result to immobilize/wreck it, but it's also not a great way to spend points.

-Plasma pistols are massively overpriced. Avoid them unless you know what you're doing to at least 70%. With a range of 12", it's rare for them to get more than one or two shots off for a whole game. It looks like you're going for an assault squad with 4 plasma shots and re-rolls on the charge, which I will admit is cool, but flamers are going to be a lot more use against orks/eldar. Also, it's nearing the cost of assault terminators.

-Assault terminators wreck ass. A useful guideline is that if you've got an assault unit that costs as much as a land raider full of TH/SS terminators and isn't a land raider full of TH/SS terminators, it's probably not an efficient way to spend points.

Alright. Here's a revised version. I realize it's not a very mobile army, will that be an issue vs. eldar? Or orks for that matter?

tactical 180 total
-+5 marines (+80)
-plasma gun (+10)
-missle launcher

tactical 90

terminator 230 total
-cyclone (+30)

chaplain 130 total
-terminator armor with storm bolter (+30)

assault terminator squad 200 total
-storm shields and thunder hammers

whirlwind 85 total

predator 85 total
-heavy bolter sponsons (+25)

It can be, but if they're not getting vehicles then they won't be much more mobile than you.

Maybe choose one of the terminator squads, two squads at 1000pts is almost half your allowance. I think you should settle for the regular ones since you have them already. Assault termies should ideally have a land raider and even then, orks aren't their best matchup. Also, I think the tactical termies will serve you well against ork mobs and foot eldar, and keep serving you well when they go and buy some trukks and a wraithlord.

And I'd definitely get a librarian over the chaplain. He's cheaper and much more useful. Against eldar he can't expect to cast well, but his psychic hood can more than make up for it.

Alright. So scrap assault terminators. What should I replace them with? Assault marines or more tacticals? Maybe the dreadnought from the black reach set?

librarian 140
-terminator armor storm shield (+40)

tactical 170 total
-+5 marines (+80)
-flamer (+0)
-missle launcher (+0)

tactical 175
-+5 marines (+80)
-flamer (+0)
-plasma cannon (+5)

terminator 230 total
-cyclone (+30)

whirlwind 85 total

predator 85 total
-heavy bolter sponsons (+25)

dreadnought 115
-assault cannon (+10)

Yeah that looks a whole lot better. You're not supposed to post point costs though.

Hi Plort, welcome to Dakka. My thoughts in red;

Plort wrote:Alright. So scrap assault terminators. What should I replace them with? Assault marines or more tacticals? Maybe the dreadnought from the black reach set?

Overall, I think you need to add rhinos for mobility. They're just too cheap and vehicles are just too tough to ignore---even at 1k points. Blocking assault lanes, protecting your guys, contesting objectives, etc etc---for 35 points? Yeah

librarian 140
-terminator armor storm shield (+40)
Where's he going to ride? What powers? I would suggest Null Zone and Avenger. Or Null Zone and Gate if you insist on walking .

tactical 170 total
-+5 marines (+80)
-flamer (+0)
-missle launcher (+0)
Great, but I would definitely add a rhino.

tactical 175
-+5 marines (+80)
-flamer (+0)
-plasma cannon (+5)
Plasma Cannon's are pretty underwhelming, I would stick with a ML (It's free too!)

terminator 230 total
-cyclone (+30)
They're usually pretty meh but at 1k they might make a good firebase/counter assault.

whirlwind 85 total
Could be great---could do nothing. They're pretty dependent on match up---which is why I usually ignore them.

predator 85 total
-heavy bolter sponsons (+25)
Awesome selection, I love Dakka preds. I would take another of these babies over a Whirlwind. Dakka preds are just great for the points.

dreadnought 115
-assault cannon (+10)
I would drop the Assault Cannon and stick with a MM. A MM that can move/fire is pretty damn good. Just walk/run him behind your smoked rhinos---and your entire armored column has 4+ saves. Then next turn start moving up and firing.

Plort wrote:Alright. So scrap assault terminators. What should I replace them with? Assault marines or more tacticals? Maybe the dreadnought from the black reach set?

librarian 140
-terminator armor storm shield (+40)
Whis is where an ausslt squad would come in (Or a normal one!)in other words keep em!
tactical 170 total
-+5 marines (+80)
-flamer (+0)
-missle launcher (+0)
Rihno?(Thats if they are going to capture objectives)
tactical 175
-+5 marines (+80)
-flamer (+0)
-plasma cannon (+5)

terminator 230 total
-cyclone (+30)
I woulf honestly have eiver aussult or flamer (Beraing in mind fimers are aussult weapons and you autmaticly get hits on einmy troops
whirlwind 85 total

predator 85 total
-heavy bolter sponsons (+25)

dreadnought 115
-assault cannon (+10)
lascanon!

Ok, another revised version, the chainfist and dozer blade are in bold, because I had 5 leftover points and I wasn't sure of one or the other. Other than that, I was planning to use librarian with the terminator squad with gate of infinity, maybe give him avenger too?

Also thank you for all the input guys. I realize how noob these questions sound, but ever since I starting reading the 40k books about a decade ago, starting with gaunt's ghosts, I've been warhammer and 40k crazy ever since. I've decided to try out the tabletop because of a couple of friends decided to try too, so I figured we could all be noobs together. Thanks again!

librarian 130
-terminator armor storm bolter

tactical 170 total (combat squads, 1 with flamer 1 with missle)
-+5 marines
-flamer
-missile launcher

tactical 170 (rhino squad)
-+5 marines
-flamer
-multi-melta
rhino 35
-dozer blade?

terminator 205 total
-heavy flamer
-chainfist?

whirlwind 85 total (or another predator?)

predator 85 total
-heavy bolter sponsons

dreadnought 115
-replace storm bolter with heavy flamer

By now it's looking pretty good, but you're missing out on a few really good things.

-Librarian can have a storm shield for just a FEW points more, if you're putting him in terminator armour, definitely get the shield too because it's great.

-Chainfist is a good idea in the terminator squad, those tend to come in handy. Cyclone launcher, however, is where it's really at. Since terminators are relentless, you can always fire two missiles with it. That's twice as many as a (stationary) tactical squad.

-Second tac squad is an opportunity to get another rhino for just 35pts. They will still work without it probably, camping home objective with missiles and such, but a piece of armor for so few points is not to be passed up lightly.

If you can't find the points for all of this, at least get the storm shield.

Here's one without the whirlwind. I guess getting rid of the whirlwind will make the force more mobile, but with a pinch less fire power? Should I be getting rid of the whirlwind? Added another rhino, but an extra storm bolter on both, added another chainfist to terminators because I had 25 points laying around and didn't know what to do with them.

librarian 140
-terminator armor storm shield

tactical 170 total
-+5 marines
-flamer
-missle launcher

tactical 170
-+5 marines
-flamer
-multi-melta
rhino 45
-storm bolter
rhino 45
-storm bolter

terminator 240 total
-cyclone
-chainfist
-chainfist

predator 85 total
-heavy bolter sponsons

dreadnought 105

If you're interested in using all of the AobR stuff (except the Captain), I'd use something like this:

HQ:

Librarian [100]
- Null Zone
- The Avenger

TROOPS:

Tactical Squad x10 [170]
- Flamer
- Missile Launcher
Razorback [75]
- Lascannon/TL Plasma Gun

Tactical Squad x10 [170]
- Flamer
- Missile Launcher
Razorback [75]
- Lascannon/TL Plasma Gun

ELITES:

Terminator Squad x5 [200]

Dreadnought [125]
- TL Autocannon
- TL Autocannon

HEAVY SUPPORT:

Predator [85]
- Heavy Bolters

Total: 1000 Points Even

..........

Terminators are pretty bad at the 1000 point level. But if you're taking advantage of (most) of AobR, you may as well use them.

The Razorbacks add more firepower, and allow you to get the most use of your AobR Missile Launcher setups in the Tac Squads.

You'll have to convert the Autocannon arms (or buy the FW ones) but it's really the best way to kit the Dread.

If you're playing orks and eldar consider a vindicator it's great against armour and hordes alike also drop the terminators they will get massacred by the orks in close combat with their points I would take another dakka pred and a vindicator

Single Vindicators are too unreliable, IMO.

I agree that the Termies should be dropped, but the OP specified that he's trying to use as much of his AobR that he can.

The thing is at max the sergeant will kill 0-2 orks that leaves a lot of attacks as orks depend on quantity killing no more than 2 before they attack is extremely bad

I quite like vindicators (partly because they're unreliable) but maybe a game in 4 they wipe out that 400 pt nob unit or decimate some paladins

Of course you're entitled to your own opinion

[Ignore me. I missed the + bit on the 5 marines]

Shooty terminators can do alright against orks. At least if your mate is going with AoBR. They've got a lot of shots at decent range, plus if you take a cyclone they can tear up a trukk. Don't know what your eldar mate is bringing but they're never necessarily a liability. Even if he's got two squads of banshees, you can at least use them as bait.

Whirlwind is pretty much the same. It can destroy squads of eldar if they are dismounted, and the long range pinning barrages are going to have a psychological impact on any new-ish ork/horde player, even if they don't actually kill much with proper spacing.

Edit: with bad spacing they can kill a lot though. I suggest you proxy stuff and try it out.

but if he wants shooty terminators he can just use 5 sternguard with 2 MLs which does almost exactly the same thing for nearly 100pts

Once again, the OP specified that he's trying to use his AoBR models.

I know that I'm just giving him ideas he can use the termies if he wants

What if I took out the terminators and left the librarian vanilla I would have 280 points left over...more tacticals and a rhino/drop pod? Scouts? Whirlwind, predator with lascannon sponsons, dreadnought? Here's a couple of alterations.

Librarian 100

Tactical 170 total
-+5 marines
-flamer
-missle launcher

Rhino 35

Tactical 170
-+5 marines
-flamer
-missle launcher

Rhino 35

Predator 85 total
-heavy bolter sponsons


Dreadnought 125
-twin link autocannon
-twin link autocannon

Scout squad 85
-sniper rifles
-missle launcher

Land Speeder Storm 50

145 points left, vindicator or whirlwind and random upgrades? Or...
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Librarian 100

Tactical 170 total
-+5 marines
-flamer
-missle launcher

Rhino 35

Tactical 170
-+5 marines
-flamer
-missle launcher

Rhino 35

Predator 85 total
-heavy bolter sponsons


Dreadnought 125
-twin link autocannon
-twin link autocannon

Tactical 170
-+5 marines
-flamer
-missle launcher

Rhino 35

Scouts 75
-sniper rifles

--------------------------------------------------------
Finally

Librarian 100

Tactical 170 total
-+5 marines
-flamer
-missle launcher

Rhino 35

Tactical 170
-+5 marines
-flamer
-lascannon

Rhino 35

Predator 85 total
-heavy bolter sponsons


Dreadnought 125
-twin link autocannon
-twin link autocannon

Vindicator 125
-siege shield

Ironclad Dreadnought 145
-heavy flamer in place of storm bolter