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There's a Grey Knights player at my local store looking for some tougher games to test out his list, and I have decided to oblige him. He's not a completely green player, but I've been playing a LOT longer, so the idea is to take a list that's going to be a tough matchup for his list, fielded by a veteran, but also be viable against other opponents (IE not tailored). Something he might run into in a league, if not a top tier tournament. In addition to helping him test his list, I hope to expose some obvious flaws I have seen in his design that he seems unwilling to change or at least compensate for.

My Space Wolves list is as follows (Also made an Eldar list found here):

Njal - 245
Rune Priest (Chooser, Jaws, Living Lightning) - 110
Rune Priest (Jaws, Murderous Hurricane) - 100
3 Wolf Guard (3x Power Fist, 3x Combi-Melta) - 129
8 Grey Hunters (Meltagun, Wolf Standard, Rhino) - 170
8 Grey Hunters (Meltagun, Wolf Standard, Rhino) - 170
8 Grey Hunters (Meltagun, Wolf Standard, Rhino) - 170
5 Grey Hunters (Meltagun, Razorback w/ TL Lascannon) - 155
5 Grey Hunters (Meltagun, Razorback w/ TL Lascannon) - 155
Land Speeder (Multi-Melta, Heavy Flamer) - 70
Land Speeder (Multi-Melta, Heavy Flamer) - 70
6 Long Fangs (5 Missile Launchers, Razorback w/ TL Lascannon) - 215
Vindicator (Dozor Blade) - 120
Vindicator (Dozor Blade) - 120
Total 1,999

Njal, the other Rune Priests and the Wolf Guard attach to the 8 man Grey Hunter packs. I designed the list to focus around Njal because I have seen him played a lot at the leagues around here, and I gave the Rune Priests Jaws for that purpose as well. I usually don't field Jaws, but it seems to be popular around here so I figured I'd use it so he won't be blindsided by it. It's also relatively effective against Paladins, so it might help him realize his design is a bit.....off.

For reference, the list he fields is something like this:

Draigo - 275
Librarian (Smite, Might of Titan, Shrouding, Sanctuary) - 170
5 Paladins (Psycannon, 4x Halberds, Hammer, Psybolt Ammo) - 315
5 Paladins (Psycannon, 4x Halberds, Hammer, Psybolt Ammo) - 315
5 Paladins (Psycannon, 4x Halberds, Hammer, Psybolt Ammo) - 315
Stormraven (Assault Cannon, Multi-Melta) - 205
Dreadnought (2x TL Autocannons, Psybolt Ammo) - 135
Dreadnought (2x TL Autocannons, Psybolt Ammo) - 135
Dreadnought (Assault Cannon, Storm Bolter, Psybolt Ammo) - 130
Total 1,995

That's pretty close. I'm gonna assume the last 5 points are spent on another Psychic Power or Master Crafting somewhere. The list might not be 100% exact but I'm pretty sure it's about 95%. I know he takes Smite on the Librarian.....

Thoughts? Too mean?

They are both seasoned list... Something to top my hat to

Ur sw shouldn't have a problem teaching him a couple of things with jaws on some tasty paladins

None the less he's not going to go down easy

If I had to recommend anything to him would be the dirty dread that didn't the toys he wanted to play with and the lonely storm raven in the corner

Oh and replace smite it's not worth it simple

Your list is about as good as it gets... Now I'm horrified

Looks Infected wrote:
Ur sw shouldn't have a problem teaching him a couple of things with jaws on some tasty paladins

None the less he's not going to go down easy

I think the Primary issue he is going to run into is his lack of anti-tank, and his low number of units. I will vastly outnumber him in KP's (his 9 to my 19?) but I don't think tabling him will be too difficult if I play well. The Vindicators should deal with most of the Paladins if he Deep Strikes (which he seems to like doing). He also plans to keep the Stormraven in reserve if he goes 2nd, which I guess might be a wise move, but I don't know....We shall see.

Looks Infected wrote:If I had to recommend anything to him would be the dirty dread that didn't the toys he wanted to play with and the lonely storm raven in the corner

Not quite sure I understand this line....perhaps you could explain?

Looks Infected wrote:Oh and replace smite it's not worth it simple

Yeah I mentioned that already. I think anything beyond Might, Shrouding and Sanctuary is too much to be honest.

Looks Infected wrote:Your list is about as good as it gets... Now I'm horrified

Lol, horrified eh? It's pretty much par for the course when it comes to Njal lists.....at least well designed Njal lists that is. I've seen some pretty sad looking lists using him and Ragnar together, which I don't understand.....

Okay, the KP disparity is about what you get when you run into GK, especially against a paladin list.

I've played against a few melta-spam lists and I have to say, if I were the GK player, I'd be more than a little nervous.

Your Rune Priests are definitely going down fast. The stormraven's anti psyker missiles will be pointed at them a.s.a.p; and if he uses his librarian well, he'll be cutting their effectiveness in half with his psychic hood.

Your deployment is important, if he does bring in the stormraven loaded with paladins, it's probably going to want to zoom towards your longfangs. Your Vindicators, in order to be effective, have to be within psycannon range, and you can be sure that his Dreadnoughts are going to be gunning for them from the first turn.

Meltaguns mean you're in assault range, and popping rhinos with psycannons and jumping into assault is kind of what paladins do.

The best part of that list is probably the Lazorbacks, every paladin you ID from across the board is a deep gash in his ability.

The primary weakness of a paladin list is lack of mobility, and your melta-rhinos and melta-landspeeders will probably discourage deep strike anywhere within Psycannon range. No one wants to lose 1/3 of their multi-wound models from a couple of cheap fast attack choices.

If he's a competent player, he'll be getting 4+ cover against your long range shots, but your vindicators will stop him from bunching up around the librarian to benefit from shrouding.

Stormraven means something is getting assaulted, so you want to present him with a cherry target something far enough away that he can't jump from assault to assault.

I'd say your only weaknesses are the rune priests. The GK are pretty anti-psyker; between the Aegis, the librarian, the mindstrike missiles, and the occasional piece of random anti-psyker wargear he may be fielding, your priests have a serious uphill battle to earn their points.

junk wrote:
Your Rune Priests are definitely going down fast. The stormraven's anti psyker missiles will be pointed at them a.s.a.p; and if he uses his librarian well, he'll be cutting their effectiveness in half with his psychic hood.

I'm not that worried about the Rune Priests. They won't be disembarking the Rhinos, just sitting inside and casting on the move. He will have to pop the tanks if he wants to get them, which I suppose is fine but I don't intend to get super close until he forces the issue.

junk wrote:Your deployment is important, if he does bring in the stormraven loaded with paladins, it's probably going to want to zoom towards your longfangs. Your Vindicators, in order to be effective, have to be within psycannon range, and you can be sure that his Dreadnoughts are going to be gunning for them from the first turn.

If he's smart that's what he will do, but I don't know. He hasn't been playing Grey Knights all that long. I'm not too worried about the Stormraven to be honest, because unless he deep strikes it, he will be flying flat-out from his table edge, or at worst his deployment zone, and if I go first I can easily put the thing down with missile/las/LL fire. It's the Dreads that worry me.

junk wrote:Meltaguns mean you're in assault range, and popping rhinos with psycannons and jumping into assault is kind of what paladins do.

Again, I don't intend to get that close that fast. I'll be holding off on unloading until he forces the issue, and with proper disembarkation I can prevent a charge, or at least deter him from charging if he gets me out of the Rhinos.

junk wrote:The best part of that list is probably the Lazorbacks, every paladin you ID from across the board is a deep gash in his ability.

That's the idea. Draigo's unit won't be susceptible to that but the other 10 will.

junk wrote:The primary weakness of a paladin list is lack of mobility, and your melta-rhinos and melta-landspeeders will probably discourage deep strike anywhere within Psycannon range. No one wants to lose 1/3 of their multi-wound models from a couple of cheap fast attack choices.

That's why I took them actually, as a deterrent for deep striking too close. If he shoots them, he has to deal with the Vindicators another way and that leaves my Rhinos untouched. If he ignores them, they are gonna bite.

junk wrote:If he's a competent player, he'll be getting 4+ cover against your long range shots, but your vindicators will stop him from bunching up around the librarian to benefit from shrouding.

I took the Vindicators more because I have them fully painted than anything, but that's an added bonus. As for him being competent, I'm not sure. He's a little green around the gills I think and I've had a lot of practice, so that will probably be my biggest advantage.

junk wrote:Stormraven means something is getting assaulted, so you want to present him with a cherry target something far enough away that he can't jump from assault to assault.

I'm actually not that worried about it. If he starts it on the board and I go first it's going to be target #1. If he starts it off the board and deep strikes, he cannot assault out of it that turn. If he starts it off the board and moves on from his table edge, he's not going to get close enough to launch an assault until I've had a shot at it, and it's the same if he goes first and starts it on the board. Regardless, I'm going to get a shot on it before he assaults with the unit inside. This is one of the reasons I don't take Stormravens that often, and when I do I don't put pure melee units inside.

junk wrote:I'd say your only weaknesses are the rune priests. The GK are pretty anti-psyker; between the Aegis, the librarian, the mindstrike missiles, and the occasional piece of random anti-psyker wargear he may be fielding, your priests have a serious uphill battle to earn their points.

The psychic hood is going to be my worst enemy. The rest, I'm not too worried about. I can prevent him from casting better than he can prevent me from casting, and I'll be gunning for the Stormraven very early to prevent the Mindstrikes from hitting me too hard, if at all. The Dreads are an issue though, if he gets them close enough to provide improved aegis. We shall see. Besides, if Njal does survive, his special abilities are not psychic powers and my opponent won't be able to stop them.

Looks like you're more prepared than I would have been. I think I'd be very nervous about going up against your list.

If I were trading places with him, I think I'd avoid deep striking at all; deploy a small force on the board to protect draigo, and control my reserves very carefully with psychic communion. I'd probably use the scouting option on draigo's Grand strategy to outflank to assault into whatever I could reach. If you deploy centrally to avoid the outflank, then I alpha strike the stormraven squad. If not, then I keep the stormraven at maximum range and use it in its gunship capacity, hoping it stays alive long enough to become the anvil to my outflanking hammer.

Well, the GK list is not very good at all, and the SW list is good, and seemingly tailored against the GK lists...so i think you'll be fine, though i really see no need for almost 500 points in rune priests, which is a lot for any list, but against an army that makes you fail more than most, i really think it's a mistake. I would be better to take more shooting and less psychic powers IMO. I'd bring one for the 4+ to cancel spells, but leave the rest.

Those vindicators sure will teach his paladins a thing or to, lol, assuming they get close enough to fire. Though, even if they don't you have enough fire to shut them down in other ways.

Other than that i think the grey hunter squads are bigger than they need to be, but that's probably not something you would change your mind on (i personally prescribe to the 5 grey hunters is enough doctrine, but it's w/e). If you took them out you'd have a lot more points to play with.

All in all I think you would do fine with the Space Wolf list you've got but I have to say 3 Rune Priests is rather Heavy Handed. I would drop him and some other things for probably another Lascannon Razorback Grey Hunter unit...but that's just me. I also would probably go with Las/Plas Razorbacks for the ultimate in lesson teaching as once he is in the magical 12" range you could be dropping almost 2 paladins a turn from a single tank (granted the Vindicators do that readily).

I'd not be too opposed to dropping one or both of the regular Rune Priests but I think Njal is going to stay. He's popular around here so I want to use him to give my opponent some exposure to what he can do. I don't think he has played against Space Wolves much. I didn't tailor this list to fight Grey Knights; I run similar lists with Thunderwolves in place of Njal, his Grey Hunters and the Land Speeders most times, but I wanted to try something different this time around. If I were to ditch the other two Rune Priests, what would you suggest I put in their place?

If I were you, I would do the following:

1) Drop 1Priest and the Speeders
2) Take 2 Dreadnoughts in their stead with Pc/HF.

I would be inclined to do this as I feel there is a high enough anti-tank and horde control between the Melta and Vindicators. The dreads help with elite infantry while being less afraid of walking into a fight and tying up units. Another option would be as I said before with dropping a Grey Hunter each and adding another pack of hunters. I would prefer andditioanl priest with Njal as an added blanket of Security for his Psychic Power defense.

The problem with that is he won't come across many dreadnoughts with plasma cannons and they're more or less tailored against his list, which the OP said is a no-no. If you do that he'd not get much practice in against a tourney list and more of a beatstick list that really doesn't do much except that type of army.

A possibility is to add either some wolf scouts or twin linked autocannon dreads. I am personally enjoying Lascannon/heavy flamer dreads myself. You'd only be able to afford one if you just remove the RP though.

However, two wolf scots with melta bombs and a melta gun would be a good list addition overall for any comers (an addition he'll see at some point several times I'm sure), and also worry his dreadnoughts. Just some thoughts.

I do own a pair of Dreadnoughts, so I might try that switch, but it does feel a bit like tailoring. I run those Dreads every once in a while myself, but I actually don't know how often they get used around here. Most use Rifleman/Psyfleman configuration. I have seen one army that uses 3x Dreads with PC/HF and Bjorn with a PC, which he could potentially run into at the local league or a local tournament. I'll think on it and see.

I love them for Dealing with MEQs, Feel No Pain and tying up hordes. Now that's what just my playstyle so to each their own. Don't forget though, Plasma Cannons can still hurt light armor if you run out of targets. I can't count the number of times where I've had to use Plasma Cannons to crack light armor.

Yeah Bjorn has popped a few razorbacks completely by accident for me a few times due to a lucky drift.