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I'm not here to have a discussion about whether veterans are better than penal legion (because Vets clearly are) but how or if people use these rather odd troops. Personally I see them as a support troop who are either used to outflank and hopefully tie up an objective or hold up an enemy unit in close combat (stubborn comes in rather handy with doing this).

Basically let me know what you think?

When you pay for a Penal Legion your getting the random special rule. None of the special rules aren’t really all that great to begin with.

As for the stubborn, there are cheaper ways to achieve this goal. IS with a commissar will work better to hold objectives.

I’ll stop beating around the bush, these guys are the trash of the codex. And are poor at every aspect of what they do. And I’m not going to explain why vets are better. But I would say standard IS would fill there role better then the Vets.

Penal Legion are really good for their cost if they get Knife Fighter. Having 2 s3 rending attacks on a 8 pt model is pretty nice. They're like mini genestealers, throwing out 31 rending attacks on a charge for a 80pt unit is cool. They can even threaten light tanks, although they'll likely die if the vehicle explodes.

Other then that, they aren't that great. Fluffy and fun, but not that great.

Furious charge is easier to get elsewhere, and more effective in bigger blobs.

Gunslinger is nice, if for some reason you needed some more strength 3 shooting. It might have been nice if it stacked with FRFSRF, but the faq says it doesn't.

It would also be nice if they had grenades and an upgradable sgt. I can see them working if you want another troop choice and don't have the points (I'm thinking of them for my all vets army) but yeah, these random power units just aren't that good.

if you use them as bait, you're good. at best you could have straken near them, and confer the furious charge, or counter attack rules. maybe also planting marbo next to them when the enemy takes your bait could be useful.

other than that, they will die quickly, or be inneffective. be brutal with them, and plan on using them to die. it's an expensive speedbump, but that's what tactics are for.

I'm a fan of penal legion, but they are a fragile specialty unit with limitations.

They are the cheapest possible way IG has to get an outflanking unit that is a scoring unit.

That being said they should be limited to 1 or 2 squads at the most, and 2 squads is pushing your luck.

A single squad is safe as long as it's in reserve, giving it a somewhat reasonable chance of holding an objective later in the game.

A single squad is likely to be ignored during deployment giving them a good chance to charge heavy weapons units like devastator squads, long fangs, or ork lootas. They might lose the fight, but if they kill a few and tie up a heavy weapons squad for a couple turns of shooting the loss of a penal legion squad isn't a total loss.

They have a few uses.

For 1, you must remember that every desperado roll puts them into an assault role.

Then you have their Scouts rule; this adds to their assault abilities in a way as it means your opponents Heavy weapon trooper squads(Lootas, Devs, IG HWSs, ets)will not be within 12" of a Side board edge(not after the first time you use them correctly, anyways).

Finally you get that nice Stubborn rule; an earlier poster said there is a cheaper way to get stubborn, this is not true. A Commissar attached to a PIS is a base cost of 85 points, before any other upgrades. For 80 points you get Guardsmen with the exact same stats that have a 1/3 chance to have an extra attack/model(excepting the custodian), and all models having Rending. You also have a 1/3 chance that they will all have Counter assault, Furious Charge, and Fleet(now the enemy Heavies had better not be within 18" of a side-edge). And finally, there is the 1/3 chance that all members(again, excepting the custodian) will be able to fire 2 shots from their lasguns before assaulting you(effectively just getting 2 more attacks on most models).

Their only real flaw is the lack of assault grenades; but then against most opponent, unless they roll "psychopaths", they will be fighting last in CC anyways, so no real loss in assaulting into/through cover there.

I load them into my vendettas, and use them when I need some support. The vendettas' mission to destroy armor is precedent, and the penal legion only comes out when something is getting too interested in my birds.

They typically die very fast, but bring the pain and let my vendetta fly away to destroy something else. Worth it. Plus they have a really fun paintjob!

-cgmckenzie

I really like the idea of them, and if you could take them in bigger squads, I would totally do it. But 10 Guardsmen, even with Rending, simply will not last long against anything in combat.

But I did have a squad of them kill a Keeper of Secrets in 1 round of combat... so that was cool.

schadenfreude wrote:
A single squad is likely to be ignored during deployment giving them a good chance to charge heavy weapons units like devastator squads, long fangs, or ork lootas. They might lose the fight, but if they kill a few and tie up a heavy weapons squad for a couple turns of shooting the loss of a penal legion squad isn't a total loss.

Sorry but I don't see how that can happen. If you use the scout move to get closer, you will likely be gobbled up by an assault army on its way to the rest of your units. They would not even be slowed down one bit. In fact, you will catapult them to move faster to you, because they will gain an assault move and a consolidation after they gut the desperados. Bugs and orks will love the opportunity.

Shooty armies will not waste anything useful on them, but have plenty of guns to spare and train on them when the desperados get anywhere near an objective. With their small unit size, T3, and A5+, it will take very little to wipe them out. If they go to ground, especially in cover, they may survive a bit more, but then they spend a turn doing nothing, unless you have an officer in range to tell them to get back into the fight.

So, they are mostly useless on objective-based games. On KP games, they are an easy kill point.

I have tried them in vendettas, to grab an objective, but they simply cannot last long enough to hold it. Instead, the vendettas that transported them ended up winning the game for me by contesting the objective the PL could not hold.

The penal legion are completely worth it when you are working with an astropath. For 80 points you have ten scoring guys that can come in at the right place and right time and distract your enemy.

They are supposed to die. They are the penal legion.

Necrontyr40k wrote:

schadenfreude wrote:
A single squad is likely to be ignored during deployment giving them a good chance to charge heavy weapons units like devastator squads, long fangs, or ork lootas. They might lose the fight, but if they kill a few and tie up a heavy weapons squad for a couple turns of shooting the loss of a penal legion squad isn't a total loss.

Sorry but I don't see how that can happen. If you use the scout move to get closer, you will likely be gobbled up by an assault army on its way to the rest of your units. They would not even be slowed down one bit. In fact, you will catapult them to move faster to you, because they will gain an assault move and a consolidation after they gut the desperados. Bugs and orks will love the opportunity.

Shooty armies will not waste anything useful on them, but have plenty of guns to spare and train on them when the desperados get anywhere near an objective. With their small unit size, T3, and A5+, it will take very little to wipe them out. If they go to ground, especially in cover, they may survive a bit more, but then they spend a turn doing nothing, unless you have an officer in range to tell them to get back into the fight.

So, they are mostly useless on objective-based games. On KP games, they are an easy kill point.

I have tried them in vendettas, to grab an objective, but they simply cannot last long enough to hold it. Instead, the vendettas that transported them ended up winning the game for me by contesting the objective the PL could not hold.

You seem to be assuming the desperadoes will be killed or flee in 1 turn of combat with most of your initial counters. This is untrue. 2/3 of the time they get 2 attacks/ legionaire and 3 for the Custodian(well always 3 for the custodian) when they are assaulted. That is 21 attacks, where 10 are hitting, and generally 3 or 5 are wounding(depending on whether it is Orks or Nids assaulting them); most of those wounds are sticking. they also have stubborn, so when they lose the combat they are still not very likely to run. While the assault troops have gotten an extra 6" assault move, they will be denied a turn of normal movement, thus negating the "catapult"; they will still get the D6 consolidation move(I have no idea where you are getting this flat 3" idea).

Also they do often get ignored by players simply because they are looked upon as a "weak" unit, with most people forgetting that an Assault 2 lasgun, 2 CCWs+Rending, or Fleet + Furious charge/counter attack all added with Stubborn makes the small "weak" unit surprisingly strong and assaulty. It is more about actual use of the unit then the unit's "on paper" performance.

Kommissar Kel wrote:
You seem to be assuming the desperadoes will be killed or flee in 1 turn of combat with most of your initial counters. This is untrue. 2/3 of the time they get 2 attacks/ legionaire and 3 for the Custodian(well always 3 for the custodian) when they are assaulted. That is 21 attacks, where 10 are hitting, and generally 3 or 5 are wounding(depending on whether it is Orks or Nids assaulting them); most of those wounds are sticking. they also have stubborn, so when they lose the combat they are still not very likely to run. While the assault troops have gotten an extra 6" assault move, they will be denied a turn of normal movement, thus negating the "catapult"; they will still get the D6 consolidation move(I have no idea where you are getting this flat 3" idea).

Well, let's mathammer it for all to see. 30 boyz have 4 attacks each (2 base, 1 extra weapon, 1 on charge) or 120 attacks. At WS4 vs WS3, they hit on 3+, or 2/3, so 80 hits. At S4 vs T3, they wound on 3+, or 2/3, so 53 wounds. Desperados get a 5+ save, so 2/3 punch through, or 35 unsaved wounds. That will wipe out the PL three times over. Yes, the PL will strike first at I3, but their damage potential is 21 attacks hitting on 4+, wounding on 5+, which the orks can only save on 6+, so 3-4 kills on average. That will reduce the wounds on PL by 10% here, so 32 instead of 35 unsaved wounds. Still a wipeout three times over. Mathammer shows 1.2 kills per ork, so 20 boyz will kill the PL twice over. Ergo, a catapult of 6+d6 inches in the IG direction.

I have experience with them both against DE and BA, so it is not just "on paper".

Yep, you are right; how stupid of me to assume that PL are at least decent when they cannot even stand up to 2.25X their points in a vacuum.

Let's try the same Vacuum mathhammer at equal points and include the shooting phases(since you would not put them within 12" of 14 Orks without shooting):

Pl walks to within 12" and fires their Lasguns; 19 shots, 10 hits, 3 wounds, 3 dead Orks.

11 Orks advance to within 6", fire 11 shots, 4 hit, 3 wound, 1 dead PL.

Orks Charge, Strike Simultaneous, there is a 2/3 chance the PL get 19 attacks, the orks get 44. 10 Pl attacks hit, 29 ork Attacks hit. 3 PL wound, 19 orks wound. 13 PL die, 3 orks die.

The orks still get their 6+D6" "Catapult", but there are only 8 Orks left for any other units to deal with.

No if you are not a Complete Fool and put your PL unit out in the open and within 12' of the orks; you can do 2 things, on your turn you can stand still and shoot the Orks, then assault them on your next turn(sudenly the tables are turned with the PL getting a 2/3 chance at 31 attacks, killing 4 Orks, and the boyz only getting 3 attacks for the 9 orks left after the Shooting and the eventual assault; and those 37 Ork attacks hit with 24, wounding with 12, and only killing 4 PL; the combat is a Draw and continues next turn where the orks kill 4 more PL, while maybe losing 1 Ork, the PL Morale test at Ld8, and have a pretty good chance to get away from a SA if they fail).

If you are letting your PL get charged you are failing the unit, the unit is not failing you.

If you could choose their special ability then worth the cost. As it's random, you can't plan their use until you've rolled which is very limiting. Mainly used for scouting/distraction early game and then a late objective push if still alive.

Kommissar Kel wrote:
Also they do often get ignored by players simply because they are looked upon as a "weak" unit, with most people forgetting that an Assault 2 lasgun, 2 CCWs+Rending, or Fleet + Furious charge/counter attack all added with Stubborn makes the small "weak" unit surprisingly strong and assaulty. It is more about actual use of the unit then the unit's "on paper" performance.

At the risk of being, well, something or other, aren't those basically the same things that make Swooping Hawks and Harlequins some of the best units in the game?

Also, I'd actually RATHER have the Swooping Hawks or the Harlies (hypothetically) even over Penal Legion simply because you can count on those powers. You know you'll have them. Meanwhile with the Penal Legion, you have to hope that you'll get the one you're counting on using in particular situation. Maybe I'm just not that great a player, but every time I've used them (and I HAVE used them) I've always rolled the wrong ability for the situation. I'd get Gunslingers when I want Knife Fighters and so on.

All 3 powers are Assault oriented. They are also all the same net result:

Gunslingers: Fire 2 lasgun shots/PL, then charge for 2 attacks/PL = 4 total attacks/model(cusodian fires 1 laspistol shot, then makes 4 CC attacks for 5 total attacks).

Psychopaths: Fleet+Furious gives 2 attacks/PL on the Charge but at S+I 4 and after a Run in the Shooting phase.

Knife fighters: 3 attacks/legionaire on the charge but their attacks are rending.

As you can see, for sheer Volume of attacks, Gunslingers has the most; but they are the weakest individual attacks(all S3 with no special rules nor AP).

Oh and Daedalus: you always have Desperadoes; it is what gives you the roll for abilities.

Kommissar Kel wrote:
Oh and Daedalus: you always have Desperadoes; it is what gives you the roll for abilities.

Ah, oops. Replaced what I said with what I meant.

I would actually argue that the 24" assault 2 of gunslingers gives you better ability to kite than it does to assault. You're still squishy and going last in assault, so you would do better to hover around that golden 20"-24" radius and outshoot the enemy a la old Daemonhunter tactics.

Kommissar Kel wrote:
Let's try the same Vacuum mathhammer at equal points and include the shooting phases(since you would not put them within 12" of 14 Orks without shooting):

If you are letting your PL get charged you are failing the unit, the unit is not failing you.

Well, maybe I am doing something wrong, but I am always willing to learn. So, explain how you are going to advance on the orks with a scout move then stay out of charging range.

What normally stares back at me is about 100 orks behind a wall of dreads. They position themselves as close and snuggly to me as they can, without bunching up too much for fear of blast templates. In pitched battle and spearhead, we'll start 24 inches away. In DoW, more like 12". If you start at the edge of range and do a scout move of 6", now you are 18" or less away, or 6" in DoW. If you advance or not, you will be 12/18". You can rapid fire the wave, but you cannot charge unless in DoW. The orks will either charge you on this first turn or at the worst, on the second turn. What do you do?

Regarding vacuum, my point exactly is based on the idea that they are not into vacuum. This is not a 500pt game where everybody is spread out. We are talking about 1850/2000 pts games where we have units wall-to-wall. There will never be a shortage of orks to jump on the PL, and it certainly will not be a fair fight. That was exactly my point about assault armies being catapulted by anything you feed them on their way to your main force. At standard point levels, a PL unit or two are a power bar for the hungry hordes.

Staying out of assault range first turn is very easy: you do not move your full distance; possibly not at all.

Let the orks come to you, let them put you within assault range, then pounce on them. While you are allowing them to come to you, you shoot them, a lot.

If you are facing a Common Kan-wall ork army for the most part, you can basically auto-win as IG. Shoot the Kans with Long-range, direct-fire weapons; autocannons work very well here(Fire on my target is almost better than bring it down since they are likely to have 4+ cover saves from KFF Big meks). Once the Kans are gone the rest of the Orks can be hit with Blast markers and FRF,SRF. Ordnance should have been striking at the troops behind the Kans the whole time(firing indirectly so they only have a 5+ KFF cover save).

My wife plays a Hybrid Orks list(4 vehicles, 50 boyz, 6 nobz, 10 Lootas, 10 Burnas, 11 bikes); and she plays with some pretty cut-throat "Table-you-is-my-only-objective" tactics. I have never beaten here with my marines, but my guard have tabled her first a few times(or had a unit or 2 survive long enough to capture some objectives at the end of the game). If she were playing a Kan-wall I would have an easier time even with my marines.