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My friend is a fairly expirenced 40ker and he wants to convert his Ultra Marines to a different form of SM. Which one should he choose? And give some good reasons of why he should choose that army.- Space Wolves, Blood Angels, grey knights, (i really dont know if theres any more with codexs yet.)

I'd say either BAs or SWs.

Well this is a very openended question. I personally play Dark Angels (for the fluffness). But if you are looking in terms of power I would lean towards SW/BA/GKs.

Hmm..Blood Ravens are my favorite personally. But..for rules wise, fregging Space Wolves. Living lightning does a wonder on all my DE.

All of them. All of them are the best.

ShatteredBlade wrote:Hmm..Blood Ravens are my favorite personally. But..for rules wise, fregging Space Wolves. Living lightning does a wonder on all my DE.

are SWs an assault army or shooting or what?

They do both well. Most Space Marine chapters do. I personally recommend that your friend does some research and chooses based on the following criteria (in this order):

1. Fluff. I would never want to play an army based on a concept I thought was bad. (Like the Blood Ravens)

2. Paintability. You're going to have to spend a lot of time painting them, so you want something that isn't too insanely difficult. I avoided White Scars, Black Templars, and Imperial Fists for this reason.

3. Rules. Blood Angels, Black Templars, and Space Wolves all have their own separate Codices. Salamanders, Imperial Fists, Crimson Fists, and Raven Guard all have hero characters which can be selected to grant a special rule to your army (at the cost of another rule).

So there you go, that's my input.

Rules-wise, Space Wolves are top of the heap at the moment. Your friend better be prepared for the cries of cheese that other players might give him though!

AlmightyWalrus wrote:Rules-wise, Space Wolves are top of the heap at the moment. Your friend better be prepared for the cries of cheese that other players might give him though!

I don't know man...

Poision rounds that wound on a 2+ and Heroic Intervention/Descent of Angels are pretty epic.

Make up your own chapter like most every other marine player does. This way he can easily switch between which ever newly released Marine book creeps forward the most and be the first on the bandwagon with no down time.

Paint your models in a slight metalic sheen and you're good to go.

If he wants to go 100% absolutely nuts, tell him to write up some background for an insanely divergent chapter that the first company follows the SW rules, second company, GK, third company DA and so on.

Black Templar: army wide preferred enemy, furious charge on terminators for <5pts each, 2 cyclone MLs for every 5 man tactical terminator squad, amazing tech marines, 20pt CHEAPER TML land speeders, free multi-meltas on LR crusaders, L10+rerolls armywide if you have a Marshal, and some awesome wargear shenanigans. Yeah, I'm much happier since I switched from Vanilla/BA.

timetowaste85 wrote:Black Templar: army wide preferred enemy, furious charge on terminators for <5pts each, 2 cyclone MLs for every 5 man tactical terminator squad, amazing tech marines, 20pt CHEAPER TML land speeders, free multi-meltas on LR crusaders, L10+rerolls armywide if you have a Marshal, and some awesome wargear shenanigans. Yeah, I'm much happier since I switched from Vanilla/BA.

What, what and what?

If by "amazing" you mean "better than everyone elses, but still not worth taking" then sure. A Marshal doesn't give you rerolls, "only" Ld 10 and the only "awesome wargear shenanigans" us Templars have going for us is the adamantine mantle/SS combo, which is more or less a worse Lysander. There's plenty of nice stuff in the Codex, I just don't feel that those are three of them.

Game wise BA
fluff wise Ultrahmarinz

Hmmm, I know I read somewhere about the re-rolls...maybe I was combining it with a banner. My apologies. I've only gotten a few games in with them so far. But you can still get some pretty stacked models who hit like mack-trucks in this army. So...yes, I still think it's better (more fun) than other SM chapters. Also, don't forget: plasma guns at a 9 point discount from regular marines, power fists at a 10 point discount from regular marines, assault marines with 2pt melta bombs and 5pt plasma pistols? Um...yeah, huge discount from regular marines. I do think they are better in certain areas and worthy of being listed higher than vanilla marines.

edit-I ran a Marshal and I had a squad with the chapter banner (+1 attack, re-roll morale) and just kind of forgot the morale re-roll went with the banner, not the Marshal. Leadership ten for a marine army across the board is still pretty big though.

Competitively? Space Wolves.

Grossly undercosted Troops and Heavy Weapons squads coupled with incredible ability to min/max , field deathstar units, some of the fightiest HQ's in the game, and probably the best all around psykers out there (odd for an army that supposedly dislikes psykers...) it's really difficult to fail with SW's. They've basically got most of the advantages of CSM's and SM's and some neither have (always-on Counterattack), with none of the drawbacks, and a 10-30% cost discount depending on how your are playing them.

Best in terms of fluff or best in terms of tabletop?

Tabletop... it's those friggin wolves

Fluff, it's whatever you like.

timetowaste85 wrote:Hmmm, I know I read somewhere about the re-rolls...maybe I was combining it with a banner. My apologies. I've only gotten a few games in with them so far. But you can still get some pretty stacked models who hit like mack-trucks in this army. So...yes, I still think it's better (more fun) than other SM chapters. Also, don't forget: plasma guns at a 9 point discount from regular marines, power fists at a 10 point discount from regular marines, assault marines with 2pt melta bombs and 5pt plasma pistols? Um...yeah, huge discount from regular marines. I do think they are better in certain areas and worthy of being listed higher than vanilla marines.

I'm probably going to sound very negative, but our squad power fists have one attack base, which is rubbish...

Space Wolves are far and away the most popular, by GW's own admission, and there's likely a reason for that. They have the best troop choices in the game, some amazing HQs, amazing psykers, amazing fire support...though contrary to popular belief, they're not an assault army. They're a 24" or less army.

Blood Angels are the second-most popular, and while they are most definitely an assault army - many BA players consider taking Tacticals to be an utter waste of points - one of their most prolific playstyles is MSU Assault Squads in Razorbacks, ending up with a very shooty list.

Vanilla Marines are up next, and while they don't do any one thing more awesomely than anyone else, they're good generalists and can still be a lot of fun to play.

Black Templars are supposedly another assault army, but with the way their FAQ updated them, their real strength is in the amount of shooting they can put out, especially with their undervalued Typhoons. That said, there are still few units more terrifying than Black Templar Terminators, but that's really their only assault ace-in-the-hole. Their Crusader Squads are nothing to write home about in the long run, and everything else is more or less standard Marines in terms of playstyle.

Dark Angels are, at the moment, essentially a watered-down version of Vanilla Marines. Everything they can do, someone else can do better.

So, to answer the question? Space Wolves are the best all-around.

Looks like most people say SW. He's looking at those and BA now. What do you guys think about the BA?

BA are a top tier army currently. Plenty of tricks and the fastest SM army.

Seaward wrote:Space Wolves are far and away the most popular, by GW's own admission, and there's likely a reason for that. They have the best troop choices in the game, some amazing HQs, amazing psykers, amazing fire support...though contrary to popular belief, they're not an assault army. They're a 24" or less army.

Actually...in many cases...a 48" army. I've been seeing SW armies with more long range AT guns lately than most IG armies. Hooray min/max razorback-longfang-livinglightning spam!

Black Templars?

If he wants to change it for fluff, I would always suggest being creative and making his own. If he wants different rules I find BA is a very fun army to play. That might just be because they fit my prefered fast play style

Silver Skulls. A loyalist chapter that adorns themselves in skulls and severed head trophies. Fething WIN!

SW seem incredibly strong.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

mcyeatman wrote:BA are a top tier army currently. Plenty of tricks and the fastest SM army.

Nicholas wrote:If he wants to change it for fluff, I would always suggest being creative and making his own. If he wants different rules I find BA is a very fun army to play. That might just be because they fit my prefered fast play style

Yep, he's going with the BA. He said they were his style of play too.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

timetowaste85 wrote:Hmmm, I know I read somewhere about the re-rolls...maybe I was combining it with a banner. My apologies. I've only gotten a few games in with them so far. But you can still get some pretty stacked models who hit like mack-trucks in this army. So...yes, I still think it's better (more fun) than other SM chapters. Also, don't forget: plasma guns at a 9 point discount from regular marines, power fists at a 10 point discount from regular marines, assault marines with 2pt melta bombs and 5pt plasma pistols? Um...yeah, huge discount from regular marines. I do think they are better in certain areas and worthy of being listed higher than vanilla marines.

I'm probably going to sound very negative, but our squad power fists have one attack base, which is rubbish...

Yup, it does sound very negative. Because you need to take into account that preferred enemy from the Emp's Champion (if you choose it, which is the best option), and that will USUALLY be the equivalent of 2 normal marine attacks. It still works out to be roughly the same with re-rolls to hit. Keep the math hammer in mind and you'll see it's still better than other regular squads powerfists. Only way it's worse is if your opponent has lower WS than you, which sadly isn't too common (some Nids, some IG, Tau, some Orks). Not a large force...MOST armies are WS4 base.

Typically, you have a 50/50% chance on your attacks. Given preferred enemy, it becomes a 75% chance you will get an attack off. Having 2 attacks without preferred enemy=2 50/50 attacks, meaning an average of 75%. It's the same exact value. Now BT pay 10 pts less than regular marines. So yes, it is FAR superior with a 10pt decrease.


Edit-I missed your response to my first post of Techmarines not being worth taking. Are you kidding me? Tooled out correctly and they are MONSTERS in CC. I've run them every game in my BT list, and usually win. In a regular marine list...not so great. Awesome in BT. And no, I won't back down on that fact until somebody proves otherwise in game-because they've always been worth their weight in gold for me. I've admitted I've only played a few games with BT. But the Techmarines have always been there and always done well. They're as hated as my Daemon Flamers of Tzeentch (ruled as the most broken unit in my gaming circle).

timetowaste85 wrote:
Edit-I missed your response to my first post of Techmarines not being worth taking. Are you kidding me? Tooled out correctly and they are MONSTERS in CC. I've run them every game in my BT list, and usually win. In a regular marine list...not so great. Awesome in BT. And no, I won't back down on that fact until somebody proves otherwise in game-because they've always been worth their weight in gold for me. I've admitted I've only played a few games with BT. But the Techmarines have always been there and always done well. They're as hated as my Daemon Flamers of Tzeentch (ruled as the most broken unit in my gaming circle).

Oh, it's not that Techmarines aren't awesome beatsticks, it's that they take up an elite slot, which is the most valuable slot in the army. Competing with terminators and dreadnoughts is kinda harsh. The other problem that I've found with them is that they usually attract every single powerfist in the opponent's army and as such don't get to live very long after assaulting something. As a side note, how do you run yours? I'd love to have techmarines in my army, I just haven't been able to justify them so far...

Well, I usually put them on bikes with full servo harness and either a BP or a SS, depending on what points I have to spare. This gives them an extra toughness to small arms fire, in addition to their 2+ or 3++. I also usually send another character in the squad, usually a Marshal on a bike as well with a couple of fast bike units. Once I actually ran a super squad with 3 techmarines on bikes, 2 marshals, 5 bikes and an attack bike. Doesn't work so well against an entire Tau gunline. Lol. Can only make so many saves...

timetowaste85 wrote:Well, I usually put them on bikes with full servo harness and either a BP or a SS, depending on what points I have to spare. This gives them an extra toughness to small arms fire, in addition to their 2+ or 3++. I also usually send another character in the squad, usually a Marshal on a bike as well with a couple of fast bike units. Once I actually ran a super squad with 3 techmarines on bikes, 2 marshals, 5 bikes and an attack bike. Doesn't work so well against an entire Tau gunline. Lol. Can only make so many saves...

So 150 points for a 2 wound model that isn't immune to ID?


That's the problem...