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Has anyone had any significant gaming experience yet with Henchman units?

Are there some units that work really well?

Some units that are underwhelming?

Are 3 meltaguns in a chimera simply too expensive or one-shot for an anti-vehicle unit that probably won't work, or are they rock 'n roll?

Is Mr I've been expecting you Coteaz, a couple of Jokaeros and 3 plasma servitors in a chimera the ultimate "home base" unit?

Are 8-man psyker units too unreliable? Do 2 4-man psyker units provide such a greater chance of a direct hit than the 8-man unit that it is worth the decrease in AP and S?

etc.

For people like me who are on the verge of spending good money on henchmen, your experiences would be very welcome indeed. Thank you.

I have had great results from an Ordo Xenos Inquisitor(Power Armor, Rad, Psykotrope, Psyker w/Hammerhand), 5 DCA's and 4 Crusaders. They are either in a Stormraven or Land Raider. I normally have Coteaz and a duplicate unit in the list also. They have decimated pretty much everything I have pointed them at, including a 'fortuned' Jetbike Seer Council, which was survivable enough to let me wipe them on his turn(YAY!). They have taken out Termies, Blobs and MEQ. Yes sometimes they are too killy and you get shot up, but they have consistently made their points.

3 man henchmen are something that GK need. We struggle to find melta elsewhere so henchmen in a chimera bring something pretty solid to a list.

I have tried (not extensivly) psykers, jokaero and servitors. I found they are more fun additions than anything else. Reliability is first and foremost a priority for many armies, doubly so when you are playing a really elite army with a low model count. Psykers can get shut down too easily (and the fact that their LD isn't great), Jokaero are expensive and not definitely going to give you a result you need, and servitors need to remain stationary to be effective.

Give DCA a try with attached GM with grenades. This gives them much needed access to frag, and some nice buffs with rad and psychotroke. Some swear by adding some crusaders for added survivability but for me I prefer the damage output of the 4 S4 I6 PW attacks on the charge. Coming out of a stormraven (for mobility) is a great go to unit either as counter-assault or as a means of taking the fight to the enemy.

in my henchmen army I generally a fan of 2 jokero's with either 3 meltas or 3 plasmas wth a fuel abliative 4 point wounds in chimeras. honestly it almost plays just like IG gun line. have those suported by a vindicare and pysflmen dreads and you've prretty much gotten everything covered.

From my over all experience you really need to pick a theme for your henchmen. If you mix and match to much you lose out. Some peopel like DCA spam assault henchmen, I like gunline, some people take psker spam. IT really just depends on your personal preference but choose one.

So far I have mostly been playing low point games (around 1000, mostly friendly games, no tournaments) These are the units I have been using.


1) 5x Crusaders, 5x Death Cult Assassins, Techmarine with Rad grenades.

They have yet to loose an assault.

List of Big assaults they won:

Charged 10 Death Company and wiped them before they could hit back

Charged by 5 TH/SS terminators and a Librarian (Terminator [no SS though] with Null Zone) and a Command squad. Killed the librarian before any saves had to be taken. Wiped everything after 3 rounds of combat.

Charged into 2 units (8 terminators total) of deathwing termies. [LC guys and PF guys, no TH/SS dudes). Wiped them, then Another unit charged in with Belial, they were taken out as well.


Hammerhand has not gone off every time, but I have not needed it every time.


2) 8x Psykers 1x Warrior in a Rhino.

The thing you have to remember is that this unit is VERY cheap, only 124 pts.

I have rolled perils once out of several games, and the extra warrior stayed around and held an objective for me.

They are quite unreliable, but you only need 1 good shot to deal some real damage. which they usually get by the end of the game.



3) Coteax with 2x Jokaero, 3x Meltaguns, 5x Bolters

Until recently, I was using this unit with storm bolters, but I decided to downgrade to the bolters instead. The storm bolters were not really helping.

This unit has not done very well for me so far. It is defensive, and it has taken out a few tanks. Their highlight was taking out a Ven Dread the first turn. The 3x meltagunners are terrible shots. I have missed with all three guns 3/4 of the times I have tried to melt something with them.

I still like the unit, and it makes good defense for a home objective.

With a 5 DCA 4-5 Crusader unit, is it necessary to put them in an Assault vehicle? Or would it be feasible to put them in a rhino and disembark behind the vehicle to be out of sight or at least get a cover save? I love the idea of DCA with an Inq or a Techmarine for grenade goodness.

Am I right to think that the stationary nature of servitors lends themselves to be a good home objective camper (in particular they seem to fit naturally into Coteaz's I've Been Expecting You unit - 3 plasma cannons and one of them at least should get bang on target)?

Do you think the random nature of psykers and servitors and meltaguns (and I suppose plasma guns over 12") mean we need to field multiple units? This is the conclusion I'm reaching. For instance, 4 psykers and 3 plasma guns in a chimera seems an awesome unit if you have 3 of them supporting each other - at least you'll get 2 large pies off per turn average. In short, I think your comment about reliability must be spot on - with the shooty henchmen that seems to be met by capitalising on their cost and having many copies of the same unit. In effect, paying for 3 4-man psyker units seems to be a slightly more random version of paying the same number of points for a tank that does the same pie, swopping high armour for multiple targets, and having a more variable damage output.

To put it more succinctly, having 1 plasma cannon at BS3 is too random, but having 3 of them is more reliable. Having x psykers is very random, but having y units of x/y psykers is more reliable.

I'm of the belief that henchmen work best as hyper specialized units that focus on 1 job exclusively. You can build them however you want, because they can do virtually anything, but that really dilutes their power in my opinion.

DCA/Crusaders are far too cheap for their power level in combat. For less than the price of an equipped SM tac squad, you can get a 10 man unit that can take on pretty much anything in the game short of a dreadnought. I have been running 1 unit of 6 DCAs/5 Crusaders in a stormraven in every game I play for the last couple of months and love them. Their flaw is being so good at their job that it kills them. They will typically wipe out anything they fight in the 1st round of combat unless its an IG horde or 10 TH/SS terminators. Other than that, their target will die and they will be exposed to shooting in the enemy turn. They are fragile against shooting and will go down to massed firepower from even 1 unit.

I've also run 3-4 squads of melta henchmen in chimeras in most of my games and I like them, but recognize their huge weakness in being a 3 wound, T3 unit in a metal box. In KP games they can be a liability without something else protecting them (whether by cover or distracting by being a bigger threat). But in objective games, 3 guardsmen are incredibly easy to hide, so I have won plenty of games by leaving a few of these units out of their transports and hide them in cover near an objective. This squad is outrageously cheap at 97 points, meaning you can spam them and still have plenty of points left over for other stuff. They bring melta, which GK gunlines really, really need for heavy tanks, and their chimera is an excellent gunboat in its own right.

I can see that many henchman builds are specialised, but they seem unreliable due to BS3. Isn't there a significant chance that 3 BS3 meltaguns will fail to penetrate a vehicle? Which leads to my point above - do you not therefore need multiple units of 3 BS3 meltagun acolytes to form a reliable army?

Redundancy =/= multiples of the same unit.


Yes BS3 meltaguns can and do wiff.

One way to get redundancy is to have 2-3 units of melta dudes. Another would be to have different units that can take out the same targets.


My meltaguns wiffed? well then my vindicare takes a shot at that land raider. If he fails, then the psykers take a shot at it.


My psykers try to take out some Heavy Infantry, but fail. Well I throw some Multi-lasers, bolter, and heavy flamers and force some saves, but they stick around. Next turn a maneuver my close combat unit to take care of them.


You do not want to only have 1 unit that can deal with AV14, 2+ armor, Fast stuff staying out of range, ect....

Some lists work by finding two units that work well together and taking 6 copies of each (Purifers and Psyrifle dreads is a perfect example).
Other lists can achieve redundancy by having several different unit performing similar tasks. (examples above)


======================================

I think that psykers should always be in a unit of 8.

4 gives you a S6 AP3 blast. Great for killing marines, but pay 10 pts, and you get a S7 AP2 shots.

5 is great for killing Terminators, but what about tanks. It is only another 30 pts to go all the way to S10 and AP1.

8 Plus a bland warrior, is only 84 pts, and it gives you the power to hurt everything in the game. S10 AP1 is worth the unreliability. S6 AP3...not so much.


yes the Psykers are unreliable, but this can be fixed a couple of ways

1) Mount them in a Rhino.
Fortitude lets you shoot more. You preserve the unit from small arms fire. You are able to move away from psy defense as needed.

2) Keep them Alone
Melta/Plasma wants to be 12"-6" away from their target.
Psykers want to be 24"+. Keep back from the Psy hoods, Keep back from Shadows of the Warp. Stay away from you scattering on yourself.
You can add one bland warrior to keep one model alive if you rolls a perils. Preserves a kill point and a scoring unit.

3) Servo Skulls
These guys can help a lot (for a turn or two), as BS3 and 1D6 scatter means you are almost guaranteed to hit a large target like a land raider.
Otherwise, just use the skulls as scout/infiltrate blockers.

==========================


So far, my Hench-Star has been in a chimera. It has worked out okay so far.

@svendrex - The DCA's look pretty cool. Why the crusaders, though? Why not 5 more DCA's?

DCAs only have a 5+ save. If they whiff or leave a character with a lot of attacks alive, they could lose a bunch of models and lose on combat resolution (and get wiped on a sweep).

The crusaders are there for the 3+ invulnerable storm shield save.

I can't remember my maths.

What is the chance of a GK Ld8 psyker successfully casting his spell AND getting a direct hit?

What is the chance of at least 1 of 2 GK Ld8 psykers getting a direct hit?

What is the chance of at least 1 of 3 psykers getting a direct hit?

Flavius Infernus wrote:DCAs only have a 5+ save. If they whiff or leave a character with a lot of attacks alive, they could lose a bunch of models and lose on combat resolution (and get wiped on a sweep).

The crusaders are there for the 3+ invulnerable storm shield save.

If your Death Cult unit gets caught out, say after whipping a unit the crusaders are nice to have to protect against shooting attacks too. Its nice too that the crusaders have power weapons.

I run my Death Cult Assassin unit as follows.

Ordo Xenos Inquisitor
Power Sword, Rad and Psychotroke Grenades, Servo Skull.

4 Death Cult Assassins

3 Crusaders

Banisher with Eviscerator

Rhino

I like this unit because its not too killy as to leave then out of cover or combat on the enemies turn. Its has survivability with the crusaders and if a chance walker comes up the Banisher can hack into it. Sometimes they ride in their Rhino. Most often they are flying in a Stormraven they can assault out of.

necron99 wrote:@svendrex - The DCA's look pretty cool. Why the crusaders, though? Why not 5 more DCA's?

With Rad grenades and Hammerhand,
5 DCA deal
(assume WS4 and T4 or less): 11.11 wounds. (3.7 TH/SS termies)
(Assume WS5+ and T6): 5 wounds.

There are VERY few units who can stand up to that kind of whipping at Int 6 in the assault phase.
How often do you see units of 20+ marines that you NEED to wipe out in one assault phase before they strike back?


T6 Daemons with Heavy Inv saves or T 8 dudes or Walkers are some of the few things a DCA+crusader unit have trouble with. I am not a fan of the evicerator guy. He is a few too many points for WS 3 and 1 attack IMHO. I just try to avoid the walkers.

3++ saves are awsome. It means the unit is protected from shooting or whatever return attacks are left.



===========




Some Math Hammer for Psyker units.


You have a 27.77% chance to fail a LD 8 Test. Easiest way to think of this, is you fail about 1 out of 4 tests.


I am not great with my Math on scatter dice, but you are on target 1/3 of the time. For most tanks you can probably scatter 2" and still hit is with the hole though. so that is a 5 or less on the scatter die.

That comes down to about a 50/50 chance to hit that tank. 51.85 to be exact.


Total chance to hit is about 43.20% (that is a psy test and a scatter roll)


With 1 unit
43.2% chance to hit once
56.8% chance to hit with nothing

With 2 units
18.7% chance to hit twice
49.0% chance to hit once.
32.3% chance to hit with nothing

With 3 units
8.1% chance to hit 3 times
31.8% chance to hit twice
41.8% chance to hit once
18.3% chance to nit with nothing

[note: this is only for scattering 2" or less. This does not count larger tanks like land raiders or storm ravens. This does not count scattering onto something else nearby]

It seems to come down to preference. Survivability, damage output or tactical flexibility. Remember though that whatever you pick it has to work in concert with the rest of your force. For example I take pure DCA coming out of a Stormraven with attached GM and a MM/DCCW dread. That's pretty much the scary stuff in my list. The rest is gunline/mobile fire support. If my opponent goes for my stormraven and contents then they aren't working on my shooty units, if they go for the shooty stuff then the Stormraven gets to unload where-ever it's needed. If I made the cc stuff more survivable maybe my opponent would split fire and start hitting on my razorbacks, chimeras and ven dreads...not something I would want them to do.

I guess you could proxy some models and see which works best for you.

Putting a Librarian with the DCA makes them capable of killing anything, although it is a lot of points. Might of Titans lets them shred walkers.

I think that the Librarian is better with the Arco-Flagellants.


Quicksilvers fixes the Int 3 issue that they have.

Might+Arcos is very deadly as well. S6 A4(5) with 2D6 armor.

svendrex wrote:Some Math Hammer for Psyker units.

With 1 unit
43.2% chance to hit once
56.8% chance to hit with nothing

With 2 units
18.7% chance to hit twice
49.0% chance to hit once.
32.3% chance to hit with nothing

With 3 units
8.1% chance to hit 3 times
31.8% chance to hit twice
41.8% chance to hit once
18.3% chance to nit with nothing

[note: this is only for scattering 2" or less. This does not count larger tanks like land raiders or storm ravens. This does not count scattering onto something else nearby]

This is excellent and just what I need to help make the decision between a single large group of psykers or multiple psyker units, thanks again svendrex.

1 psyker unit - chance of hitting effectively each turn = 43%.
2 psyker units - chance of hitting effectively each turn = 68%.
3 psyker units - chance of hitting effectively each turn = 82%.

3 lots of 4 psykers + acolyte + rhino = 84 pts * 3 = 252 pts.
3 lots of 8 psykers + acolyte + rhino = 124 pts * 3 = 372 pts.

So those are the points values of a pretty reliable large blast template move & shoot psyker group, of either S6 AP3 (anti MEQ/GEQ) or S10 AP1 (anti-everything).

Is 250 pts worth a move & shoot S6 AP3 large blast template with 82% hit success with a 36" range? I don't know the cost of a comparable Lehman Russ?

When I use Henchmen in my Grey Knights force I use them as a cheap way to fill my second troops choice. I take Coteaz with a warband of 3 Multi-Melta Servitors, 2 DCAs, and 4 Warrior Acolytes with Bolters for a 180point camping unit. A few points about using henchmen specifically in addition to an army of Grey Knights:

When using Coteaz psuedo-mystic rule where he gets to shoot deep strikers, don't bother with anything but Servitors with Heavy Bolters, Multi-Meltas, or Plasma Cannons. The range on the ability is only 12" so Jokaero are a bit expensive and overkill (the Multi-Melta is fantastic because anyone you get to shoot at is automatically at half range). The Bolter Acolytes are absurdly cheap at 5 points per model and they only exist as ablative wounds for the Servitors and DCAs. The DCAs are there to deter and defend against assault, sanctuary can only do so much.

This unit (with more bolter acolytes if you have the points) is fantastic for camping an objective as Coteaz scares people into deep striking further off. At 180 points this is not the cheapest way to sit on an objective but Coteaz' special abilities with stealing the initiative or defending against it make it well worth it when playing an assault-heavy force.

svendrex wrote:I think that the Librarian is better with the Arco-Flagellants.


Quicksilvers fixes the Int 3 issue that they have.

Might+Arcos is very deadly as well. S6 A4(5) with 2D6 armor.

Might and Quicksilver are during your turn only, and Q is used during the movement phase. Arcos don't impress me compared to the bargain that is the DCA, as they can be counterassaulted and hurt badly since they are I3 during your opponent's turn. The DCA I6 is (almost) always there, and counterassaulting them is still going to really, really hurt and the DCA are much tougher thanks to the 5++ dodge.

Counterassault Arcos and you can kill them, counterassault DCA and they kill you anyway.

Sethorly wrote:
Is 250 pts worth a move & shoot S6 AP3 large blast template with 82% hit success with a 36" range? I don't know the cost of a comparable Lehman Russ?

Here is the thing. S 6 and AP 3 is fine, but what is you are fighting a terminator heavy army? What if the enemy is all in tanks? What if you want to ID some thunder wolves?


For 250 pts, you can get 2 units of 8 Psykers and 1 warrior mounted in a rhino.

S 10 and AP 1 means you can hurt anything. This means you have a choice of targets. Tanks, MC's, Infantry, whatever.

You do not want to combine psykers with other special weapons. Psykers Have to stay away from the enemy, (psy hoods, and Shadows first of all). Also, you want to use that 36" range, why tack them onto a group of meltagun dudess?



S6 AP3 is fine, but it is only a walking marine killer. If that is all you face, then go for it. The Larger units are always useful, you get fewer blasts, but you have a greater choice of targets.

The Grog wrote:

Might and Quicksilver are during your turn only, and Q is used during the movement phase. Arcos don't impress me compared to the bargain that is the DCA, as they can be counterassaulted and hurt badly since they are I3 during your opponent's turn. The DCA I6 is (almost) always there, and counterassaulting them is still going to really, really hurt and the DCA are much tougher thanks to the 5++ dodge.

Counterassault Arcos and you can kill them, counterassault DCA and they kill you anyway.

No question that the DCA unit is better against infantry. I just think that an Arco unit pairs better with the librarian's spells.

Quicksilver: Helps Arcos, DCA already hit first most of the time.
Might: Helps them both, but arcos have more attacks at better strength. Power weapons are not needed to hurt tanks.
Sanctuary: Helps them both, but it can make arcos hit first against non-grenade people. DCA already hit first.
Shrouding: Helps them both, but Arcos become very durable to small arms with a 3++ cover save and FNP.

The DCA do not really need anything other than Rad+hammerhand to make them very deadly. Might does help against walkers, but I am not sure that 170 pts for a librarian is worth it for a DCA unit.

For those of you going on about the benefits of pysker units, I really think you're playing the wrong army if high strength large blasts are your thing.

If you really want all those blasts, play IG and get more of them, at a lower point cost, higher range and other bonuses for the army designed to use them.

Want 3 strength 10 blasts? Play a manticore.
Want Anti-MEQ? play a colossus, or any of several leman russ varieties
IG also have the psyker battle squad, which, while being more expensive, is arguably a lot better than ours thanks to the option of weaken resolve or the large blast, and not all dying on a bad perils roll.

What I'm basically saying is that our psykers are a second or third rate version of what IG can do.
Our pyskers are cheap, its true, but they are terribly unreliable as evidence from the fact that it takes 3 full squads of them to get up to respectable accuracy with the shots, and that includes their risk of killing themselves. Henchmen are good because they are cheap and efficient at their jobs. Pyskers fail that test because it takes so many of them to become good at their job, and they run the risk of wiping themselves out everytime they try to shoot. Not worth it in my opinion, given how many things in this game can stop them cold.

Psykers are S10 And AP1 (manticore is only AP4)
The Rhino has Fortitude, making them shoot more often (guard have nothing like this)
You can servo skulls for a lot more accuracy for a turn. (guard have nothing like that)
They are scoring units as well. (guard have good troops, but they are not manticores or Russes)


Honestly, Guard do a better list based on spamming Large Blasts.


However,
One or two units of Psykers in an inquisition list are fine. They are cheap enough that you really only need one good shot to make back their points.

I think that 2 units of 10 is a resonable amount of accuracy/redundancy. 248 pts is not all that much.


Having 6 untis of 10 in a list is a bit much I think.

I imagine it's a lot harder to shut down a unit shooting from a rhino with fortitude than it is to shut down a manticore. Even more so with multiple psyker/rhino units.

1) 5x Crusaders, 5x Death Cult Assassins, Techmarine with Rad grenades.

During the Boston Brawl, a player hit me with a unit like this. His techmarine had rad, psyk-out & psychotroke grenades and warding stave. Plus the unit had some arco-flagellants. I forget how many, but I know the unit fit in a Redeemer.

Turn 1: His unit assaults out of Redeemer, kills 5 man GK terminator unit, but my Grand Master survives.
He rolls a 2 on psychotroke and we both miss the fact that he's hitting automatically, but I only get one attack each.

Top of 2: He finishes off my GM & consolidates.

Bottom of 2: He multi-assaults a Dreadknight & 10 man Strike Squad, wipes all before any even swing.

I go home & tune my list.

I have a bigger problem with you getting assaulted on turn 1 by that unit than however you built your list. There was a redeemer full of assault henchmen with psyker/grenade support inside, why were you within charge range on turn 1? If he scouted the redeemer he broke the rules, because neither land raiders or henchmen can benefit from grand strategy, which means you were within 18" of his front lines at the start of the game. That's way too close when a unit like that is in front of you.

As GK, there are plenty of ways to deal with the mirror match, and bring down assault henchmen

1) Sanctuary coteaz and librarians have it and it ruins them. They don't have frag grenades and don't benefit from a character that carries them, meaning that this power will drop them to I 1 and force dangerous terrain tests. Not so scary when you get to hit them first.

2) Shoot them. Even with storm shields, henchmen die quick to any concentration of firepower

3) Assault them first. Not the ideal choice, considering that DCA have I6 and typically you will strike at the same time or after, but better you hit them than the other way around. Again, librarian can be a lifesaver here with quicksilver.

4) Dreadnought. Without librarian support, a dreadnought is literally unbeatable for henchmen in close combat. I'd rather bog a giant henchmen squad down for the rest of the game with one dread than have them running amok across my lines.

why were you within charge range on turn 1?

Because I'm dumb.

InquisitorMack wrote:

1) 5x Crusaders, 5x Death Cult Assassins, Techmarine with Rad grenades.

During the Boston Brawl, a player hit me with a unit like this. His techmarine had rad, psyk-out & psychotroke grenades and warding stave. Plus the unit had some arco-flagellants. I forget how many, but I know the unit fit in a Redeemer.

Turn 1: His unit assaults out of Redeemer, kills 5 man GK terminator unit, but my Grand Master survives.
He rolls a 2 on psychotroke and we both miss the fact that he's hitting automatically, but I only get one attack each.

Top of 2: He finishes off my GM & consolidates.

Bottom of 2: He multi-assaults a Dreadknight & 10 man Strike Squad, wipes all before any even swing.

I go home & tune my list.

I played against the same army at the Brawlcon, one of my club teammates, and it was a really bad matchup for him (he's a much better player) because I had mech Eldar with huge amounts of str6 shooting. So the 5 DCA, 5 crusader, 3 (IIRC) arcoflagellants and techmarine unit couldn't do anything against my grav tanks. I managed to pin down and destroy the land raider and storm raven early in the game, then just shot the supersquads to death.

It took a lot of shots to kill those units, admittedly. But they're practically helpless against fast vehicles.

Psykers, dispite their destructive potential, are a poor choice.


They have only 2 strongpoints in their favor, the potential power of the blast, and their cheapness.

the problems are that if they Peril, every psyker dies(no invuln to save them) and their relativly poor Ld.

if they had Brotherhood of psykers it would be ok, but they don't.

I personally think Psykers are a solid choice. Despite their deficiencies they do bring a lot of firepower to the table. While it may be unreliable your opponent will put a lot of firepower in their direction and if in a chimera transport, will hopefully absorb quite a bit before they bite the dust. Of course I have had games where they killed themselves due to perils, but having access to a S10 AP1 large blast for 135pts (including the chimera) is nothing to be sneezed at.

Now that said I don't rely on them exclusively for high AV duty, but when you spam AV 12 and the contents are all invariably lethal, adding them doesn't hurt.