Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Hopefully i am not the only one to hate the "gets hot" special rule.

I undestand that it is just a game mechanic but why?

Surely anyone with any experience with a plasma gun will know when they are pushing it too hard. i doubt whether they would let the gun get hot enough to kill them selves.

so i propose this:

on the role of a one the weapon gets too hot to fire. a D6 is rolled, take the BS away from that result to a minimum of 1. The number is the number of turns that the weapon is inactive while it cools and cannot fire.

what do you guy's think?

I Like gets hot as it is.

There not always experienced with it and they take the gun KNOWING the risk of firing it and the red hot steam blasting in their face is just one of the things you gotta deal with when your firing a s7 ap2 weapon.

The plasma tech of the IOM is crude unlike the Eldar (starcannons) and Tau who have toned down the power to make it liveable. (S6 AP2) Thus gets hot for that extra +1S.
But I will recall when all plasma was safe (ed 2) except for chaos marines who as I recall got an increased ROF in the process. Also high-powered and low-powered plasma cannon shots.

And why would a BS5 Commander have less chance of overheating than a BS3 Guardsman? BS has no part in the weapon's mechanics.

In the Gaunt's Ghosts books Commisar Viktor Hark carried a plasma pistol. I believe at one time he said that the pistol was as likely to vaporize and enemy as it was to blow up in his hand. So it is the actually gun and the unstable nature of its munitions and mechanisms, rather than an experienced fighter simply knowing when the core was overheating and whatnot. Besides, it doesn't really matter. Its a one in 6 chance to roll a gets hot, and you still get your armor save.

In a blood angels book (red thirst?) when chapter master gaberial seth was using a plasma gun the machine spirt refused to fire do to overheating so I can see the reaso behind the rule change but the "gets hot rule" is fine as it is.

Valkyrie wrote:And why would a BS5 Commander have less chance of overheating than a BS3 Guardsman? BS has no part in the weapon's mechanics.

it is only a BS6+ commander who would overheat less. That is when you start getting re-rolls for these things.


I just think you should take a S4 hit instead of an auto-wound hit.

I still don't see what is the problem with Get Hot. It's a suitable drawback for a weapon of that magnitude. Nothing needs to be changed.

Plasma rules are one of those things that don't make sense but work from a game balance POV.

In 1st and 2nd edition they had a recharge rule, you could only shoot every other turn. Towards the end of 2nd they introduced the overload rule as a chaos only thing since chaos is crazy anyway.

In 3rd they made it the rule for everyone.

There was a proposed rule in WD that plasma have a low setting (S6 AP4) that did not overheat but I think that would remove all downsides from plasma.

JamesMclaren123 wrote:Surely anyone with any experience with a plasma gun will know when they are pushing it too hard. i doubt whether they would let the gun get hot enough to kill them selves.

Welcome to 40k. Your gun is ancient, rare, more valuable than you, and the risk of it killing you is well worth the reward of killing the enemies of the Imperium faster.

Valkyrie wrote:And why would a BS5 Commander have less chance of overheating than a BS3 Guardsman? BS has no part in the weapon's mechanics.

I have to disagree with you there. It is called Ballistic skill, not accuracy. it takes into account not just the ability to hit but also the users experience with the weapon there familieralities with the weapons. I.E. a roll of a one dose not nessaseraly means a miss it could mean that you havent reloaded in time or you had a jam, or a misfire. it is you skill with ranged weaponry not just youe accracy or ability to hit otherwise IG snipers would be BS 5.

What I have understanded about the imperiums plasma weapons, is that the weapon barely contains the plasma energy within it and sometimes it might release violently without any reason. Of course it also depends on how often the gun is used and how long the trigger is pushed, but I think that the overheating of the plasma weapon is mostly up to the user's luck. The eldar and the tau have mastered this technology and because of that they also won't get greedy of its power (that explains str 6 in their weapons). They also maintain their plasma weapons and produce new ones, while the imperiums plasma weapons may date back to Horus heresy (plasma weapons are also very rare because few know how to manufacture them). I've also read that the imperial guards Leman Russ Exterminator pattern plasma turrets are vulnerable to overheating and may even explode if the crew is very unlucky. The gets hot rule is just fine because in the end its up to the users luck if it overheats.

I don't particularly love the Gets Hot! rule, but I like your proposed alternative much less. Sorry, nothing personal, I just would find it irritating to keep track of individual weapons being out of use for a variable number of turns.

I'd rather see a return to the old style rules, where it had two profiles. Either a "fire once at full power and miss a turn, or fire at low power every turn" thing, like it used to be, or a lower strength assault 2 profile and a higher strength assault 1 profile (for the plasmagun, a similar thing for the cannon).

The way it is now is not perfect, but it's the best implementation of the concept I've seen so far, and this is coming from someone with a 5+ save to resist it.

My only issue with the Gets Hot! rule is that it helps show how the plasma gun is generally overpriced compared to its common alternatives (as its often the most expensive, has a drawback, and is not clearly superior)

Drop all the plasma weapons by 5 or 10 points in the various imperial armouries and I'd have no issues with it at all.

Jack

I think plasma weapons are way too dangerous in the game. Yes, they may be dangerous, but killing the gunner?! How about this? A roll of 1-2 will let the gun overheat. When it overheats the gunner may not fire in the next turn.

IIRC the fluff says that many plasma gunners don't live long enough to get the kind of experience you describe. They overclock their gun, and it wounds them, then the squad gives the plasma gun to the next poor rookie.

That being said, I think the plasma gun is fine as is. Think about it: S7 AP2 with rapid fire. You're wounding near everything that's not an MC on a 2+. You're ignoring all armor saves, and you have a pretty good chance of dinging vehicle armor. All this is an infantry portable weapon that can be fired on the move. It needs SOMETHING to balance it.

I'm the onw who wrote the old rule about the low-powered setting, by the by. It's in Codex Approved, rather than White Dwarf.

A few years down the line, I have to say that I was very slightly off.

The way it should work is this:

Non-Chaos forces use plasma guns at a low setting (Str 5, AP 4) while Chaos forces yank off the knob and risk 'sploding (Str 6, AP 3, Gets Hot) ... Gets Hot is redone to "The model strikes itself with the weapon. Roll to wound and check saves as normal) (Thus, a power-armored Chaos Marine who gets hot dies, but a will likely live.)

This fixes a lot of problems in one go.

(On my way to work, will detail more when back.)

ChrisWWII wrote:IIRC the fluff says that many plasma gunners don't live long enough to get the kind of experience you describe. They overclock their gun, and it wounds them, then the squad gives the plasma gun to the next poor rookie.

That being said, I think the plasma gun is fine as is. Think about it: S7 AP2 with rapid fire. You're wounding near everything that's not an MC on a 2+. You're ignoring all armor saves, and you have a pretty good chance of dinging vehicle armor. All this is an infantry portable weapon that can be fired on the move. It needs SOMETHING to balance it.

And it has rapid fire, don't forget the rapid fire!

Lexicanum wrote:Plasma is incredibly dangerous stuff. Imperial versions of the weapon are particularly unstable due to their imperfect designs. Overheating is prevented mainly by venting excess heat into the surrounding area due to a lack of proper cooling equipment. Even with this countermeasure, it is not uncommon for weapons to completely overheat or explode, killing or maiming the user... Plasma Weapons are a mostly lost technology from the standpoint of the contemporary Imperium, seen as relics of another age. Their workings are a mystery for the most part...

(from: http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Plasma_weapon)

Makes sense to me.

A big difference between, say, a starcannon and a plasma gun is that the starcannon uses a containment field whereas the plasma gun (as mentioned above) simply vents excess heat.

Jackmojo wrote:My only issue with the Gets Hot! rule is that it helps show how the plasma gun is generally overpriced compared to its common alternatives (as its often the most expensive, has a drawback, and is not clearly superior)

Drop all the plasma weapons by 5 or 10 points in the various imperial armouries and I'd have no issues with it at all.

Jack

Have to say I'm with Jackmojo on this one, whilst I have no problem with the rule I think the weapons themselves are overpriced. I therefore tend to load my CSM's up with flamers and meltas. However, in the original Rogue Trader rules, after shooting a plasma gun you had to wait for two whole turns for it to charge up before you could fire it again! Considering some battles may only last half a dozen turns, I'll take my chances with gets hot over the original rule any day, better to have a chance to kill the enemy than no chance at all. Especially as they can be pretty good at taking out heavily armed elite opponents.

It's not like the GetsHot rule uses the AP of the Plasma Gun when it hits you. Just make your armor save and your fine. The rule is good as written, it keeps Plasma Guns from being an OP choice and it has no effects on vehicles.

I think it's good

-MightyG

Necanor wrote:I think plasma weapons are way too dangerous in the game. Yes, they may be dangerous, but killing the gunner?!

Casualties are not killed. It could mean bad burns on his hands, a bright flash that blinded the gunner, or anything else that takes him out of action for the rest of the battle.

Kid_Kyoto wrote:

Necanor wrote:I think plasma weapons are way too dangerous in the game. Yes, they may be dangerous, but killing the gunner?!

Casualties are not killed. It could mean bad burns on his hands, a bright flash that blinded the gunner, or anything else that takes him out of action for the rest of the battle.

Alright, than I am ok with the rule. Thanks Kyoto.

Kid_Kyoto wrote:

Necanor wrote:I think plasma weapons are way too dangerous in the game. Yes, they may be dangerous, but killing the gunner?!

Casualties are not killed. It could mean bad burns on his hands, a bright flash that blinded the gunner, or anything else that takes him out of action for the rest of the battle.

I agree, but have to say, it could also mean killed

Currently there really isnt' any good reason for gets hot! to exist on Imperial Plasma weapons from any balance perspective, it's mainly there for its own sake and little else, they've largely become too expensive for many units or just plain not as useful as they once were (more 4+ cover everywhere, hardier tanks, etc).

If they got rid of Gets Hot! it's unlikely you'd see an explosion in plasma use, and it's on almost nothing else really.

Personally, for my Space Marine Armies, I generally take Melta over plasma. Cheaper, better at anti-vehicle, and no chance of it exploding in your hands.

Despite that, Plasma needs Gets Hot! S7 AP 2 Rapid fire? Even at 15 points per gun, needs something for balance.

I know it needs balancing, but killing (or whatever) the operator i think is a bit to detramentle considering its price.

stop it fireing or even have him drop it but a chance to kill him is a bit much IMHO

Vaktathi wrote:Currently there really isnt' any good reason for gets hot! to exist on Imperial Plasma weapons from any balance perspective, it's mainly there for its own sake and little else, they've largely become too expensive for many units or just plain not as useful as they once were (more 4+ cover everywhere, hardier tanks, etc).

If they got rid of Gets Hot! it's unlikely you'd see an explosion in plasma use, and it's on almost nothing else really.

I agree. The mech nature of the game means the benifits of melta trumps all. So gets hot or not plus a premium of 15 pts makes plasma a very limited choice even without gets hot.

JamesMclaren123 wrote:I know it needs balancing, but killing (or whatever) the operator i think is a bit to detramentle considering its price.

stop it fireing or even have him drop it but a chance to kill him is a bit much IMHO

If you're going from a fluff perspective, consider this.

If a gun your buddy is carrying blows up, are you going to run and grab it?

Not to mention, it's canon that when a plasma gun 'overheats' it vents its heat violently, not just locks up.

How about this as a compromise:

Your first 1 to hit with a plasma weapon is your indication that the weapon is overheating. You have two choices: wait one turn to fire again (letting the weapon cool down), or press on and keep firing (and risk blowing up). If you choose not to wait a turn, the weapon uses the "Gets Hot!" rule for the rest of the game. Otherwise, just wait one turn to fire and this rule resets itself (so a subsequent 1 to hit would require another turn of cool-down or else you start using Gets Hot).

Make sense?