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So I've been doing some thinking (I know a dangerous thing ), I've been in the mood lately to watch westerns and I have done just that by watching every western I own (about 40 of them old and new) and I realized something. I have seen very little in the way of Wild West Fantasy, the only thing I have seen is an idea created by a friend on Deviantart called Guncraft and then there is Cowboys and Aliens even though that's more sci-fi.

So I have it in mind to create a alternate history that combines the Western and Fantasy genres. I'm not sure that there is any specific reason I'm making this "world" other then the fun of doing it, I'm not really making it for a RPG or a novel or any of that (though I'd be honored if people did an RPG or wrote their own stories in the setting). So far I've got a few things that are fairly set and am certain that I'd like to have in this history.

The idea is that magic has always existed in the history of the earth and that our history has been the same just with the addition of magic and mythological creatures. Every human can use magic there isn't a seperate race of wizards or anything but at the same time there aren't a bunch of spells to be learned as every person is born with the a single magical ability that they can use (such as slowing down time, talking to animals, shape shifting etc.) and that develops when they reach puberty.

As I said mythological creatures do exist including humanoids (ogres, dwarfs, goblins but no orcs, elves, centaurs, cyclops, giants etc.) which along with the mythical animals are mostly located in the region of their origin though exportation and immigration have transplanted them into areas where they originally didn't exist (just as in real life). Some animals (such as dragons) did exist at one point but where hunted to extinction or are now very rare (like giants).

Instead of segregation amongst the races there is segregation between the species, examples being that the centaur race or at least the majority of the race have replaced African Americans and others as slaves (if any offence could be taken by what I just said I assure everyone it wasen't ment) or that Dwarfs have been hired to lay the railroad because they do it cheaper and because they do it better. This does create some animosity between the species but no one race is entirely benevolent or malevolent it depends on the individual so you could have outlaw gangs consisting of Dwarfs, Humans, Goblins and Centaurs and at the same time have a U.S Marshall that's an Ogre.

Now magic does exist but animals can't use it, mythical humanoids and mythical animals are magical in nature but can't use magic in the same way as humans. From an Evolutionary standpoint humans developed the ability to use magic in order to be able to survive alongside the various mythological creatures. And while the mythological creatures can't use magic they do have extraordinary natural abilities such as those described of the creatures which come from them being magical in nature.

I also in no way want anything to be advanced beyond the period. Almost everything is going to true to the period with the addition of magic and magical creatures and how they've affected it, so for example Dwarfs may be excellant craftsman but that means they're great at making guns, wagons, mines, trains etc. This comes to the time setting that the Western perspective will be focused on in this history which will be from the time of the Louisianna Purchase up untill the end of the 19th century. This will allow coverage of everything from manifest destiny, western expansion and the Indian Wars up to the Civil War and the days of the Wild West.

Well that's all I've got so far, I'd love to get some feedback on my ideas and see if anyone knows of any other settings, stories or alternate universes that combine the Western and Fantasy genres. Thanks for reading

Never heard of warmachine, huh?

Anyway, as for time period, most westerns (and thus the time period everyone thinks of in terms of western theme) is set in the 'old west,' basically after the civil war right up to shortly after the turn of the century(and encompasses the indian wars and manifest destiny), so that is when I would place the setting. Really, there is nothing for you to do in terms of pre-civil war time period. The 'wild west' didn't really get started until after the war and the westward migration it spawned.

chaos0xomega wrote:Never heard of warmachine, huh?

Anyway, as for time period, most westerns (and thus the time period everyone thinks of in terms of western theme) is set in the 'old west,' basically after the civil war right up to shortly after the turn of the century(and encompasses the indian wars and manifest destiny), so that is when I would place the setting. Really, there is nothing for you to do in terms of pre-civil war time period. The 'wild west' didn't really get started until after the war and the
westward migration it spawned.

Yes I have heard of Warmachine as well as hordes and in my opinion it in no way combines the genres of a western with fantasy. At least not in the sense that I'm talking about.

Westerns can and are spread throughout the entire time period from when trappers and settelers started moving west (which happened before the civil war though there was a great amount of western migration around the civil war when it was decided that states would vote on wether or not they allowed slavery) up untill the end of the century. There is plenty that could be done pre civil war.

What about the Stephen King Dark Tower series... I found it in a similar vein.

Hm never heard of it? What's it about?

And I've decided that my setting will span the period between the louisianna purchase to the end of the 19th century. This will allow it to cover everything from the initial exploration of the west up to the time of Poncho Villa.

Warboss Imbad Ironskull wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:Never heard of warmachine, huh?

Anyway, as for time period, most westerns (and thus the time period everyone thinks of in terms of western theme) is set in the 'old west,' basically after the civil war right up to shortly after the turn of the century(and encompasses the indian wars and manifest destiny), so that is when I would place the setting. Really, there is nothing for you to do in terms of pre-civil war time period. The 'wild west' didn't really get started until after the war and the
westward migration it spawned.

Yes I have heard of Warmachine as well as hordes and in my opinion it in no way combines the genres of a western with fantasy. At least not in the sense that I'm talking about.

Westerns can and are spread throughout the entire time period from when trappers and settelers started moving west (which happened before the civil war though there was a great amount of western migration around the civil war when it was decided that states would vote on wether or not they allowed slavery) up untill the end of the century. There is plenty that could be done pre civil war.

I disagree. The pre civil war westward migration was much more limited in scope and primarily focused on settling the west coast, and is more of an oregon trail type deal, rather than the cowboys and indians, US marshals, bandits, trains, cattle rustlers, and saloons style old west/american interior that you seem intent on replicating. The transcontinental railroad for instance, didnt begin construction until 1863, and didn't begin service until 69, 4 years after the civil war ended.

As for warmachine, the setting has a very western feel to it, however the game rulebooks do a poor job of showing it, to really get a sense of it you need to read the Iron Kingdoms rulebooks instead, which are more focused on individual adventurers rather the war.

chaos0xomega wrote:

Warboss Imbad Ironskull wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:Never heard of warmachine, huh?

Anyway, as for time period, most westerns (and thus the time period everyone thinks of in terms of western theme) is set in the 'old west,' basically after the civil war right up to shortly after the turn of the century(and encompasses the indian wars and manifest destiny), so that is when I would place the setting. Really, there is nothing for you to do in terms of pre-civil war time period. The 'wild west' didn't really get started until after the war and the
westward migration it spawned.

Yes I have heard of Warmachine as well as hordes and in my opinion it in no way combines the genres of a western with fantasy. At least not in the sense that I'm talking about.

Westerns can and are spread throughout the entire time period from when trappers and settelers started moving west (which happened before the civil war though there was a great amount of western migration around the civil war when it was decided that states would vote on wether or not they allowed slavery) up untill the end of the century. There is plenty that could be done pre civil war.

I disagree. The pre civil war westward migration was much more limited in scope and primarily focused on settling the west coast, and is more of an oregon trail type deal, rather than the cowboys and indians, US marshals, bandits, trains, cattle rustlers, and saloons style old west/american interior that you seem intent on replicating. The transcontinental railroad for instance, didnt begin construction until 1863, and didn't begin service until 69, 4 years after the civil war ended.

Well no offense but your opinion of what the old west is and my opinion of what it is are differant and I've chosen to go with mine. The western genre is not just limited to the period your thinking of and I've decided I'm not going to limit it to just civil war and after since there where significant events in history that happen prior to the civil war that are considered to be apart of the old west and I'll be editing my OP to show this. If there are any limitations in scope for the pre civil war period it's because there are limitations on the persons imagination who is using the period, not because there is a lack of content.

Also just for the record the Trail of Tears began in 1831, the annexation of Texas was in 1845, the idea of Manifest Destiny began during European colonization but was coined in the 1840's and the Indian Wars where in the 1850's all of which happened before the U.S Civil war which began in 1861.

As for warmachine, the setting has a very western feel to it, however the game rulebooks do a poor job of showing it, to really get a sense of it you need to read the Iron Kingdoms rulebooks instead, which are more focused on individual adventurers rather the war.

I have read it and like I said in my opinion it dosen't convey the type of western that I'm talking about.

@AvatarForm: I looked up the Dark Tower series and that is pretty close to what I'm going for except for the whole knightly order thing. I'm gonna see if I can find some of the books to read for inspiration, good find

@everyone: Also if anyone has suggestions on a name for this setting I'm kind of coming up blank

Warboss Imbad Ironskull wrote:Hm never heard of it? What's it about?

And I've decided that my setting will span the period between the louisianna purchase to the end of the 19th century. This will allow it to cover everything from the initial exploration of the west up to the time of Poncho Villa.

You should set it in New Orleans where the French lost countless men to the dreaded MALARIA DAEMON!!

You definitely have a good idea. Wild West is perfect for all kinds of Fantasy elements because in a way it was the dark ages for America. Most of the towns were desolate, lawless, and all around chaotic. It's perfect!

Probably a bit earlier than what you are looking for, but something that might pique your interest in terms of an alternate historical fantasy setting are Michael A. Stackpole's Crown Colonies books. I haven't read any of them yet, but they look pretty interesting. They're basically set in a fantasy world based on colonial America.

Also, White Wolf did a Werewolf: The Wild West game back in the 90s that was reasonably good, it was basically a wild west version of Werewolf: The Apocalypse. They even released a few supplements for it.

Oops quoted them in the wrong order oh well

Hordini wrote:Probably a bit earlier than what you are looking for, but something that might pique your interest in terms of an alternate historical fantasy setting are Michael A. Stackpole's Crown Colonies books. I haven't read any of them yet, but they look pretty interesting. They're basically set in a fantasy world based on colonial America.

Yeah it's a bit early compared to the period I'm looking at but not far from it I mean President Andrew Jackson (who facilitated the Louisianna purchase) was only the 3rd president of the U.S so it wasen't too long after the colonial period. I think I'm going to be making a trip to the local library when I get a chance and I'll deffinitly see if they have it.

Also, White Wolf did a Werewolf: The Wild West game back in the 90s that was reasonably good, it was basically a wild west version of Werewolf: The Apocalypse. They even released a few supplements for it.

Hmm ya know I honestly didn't even think about how cursed beings would be handled in the setting and this just brought me to it. I'll have to think about that since things like Werewolves, Vampires and other undead are pretty large in mythology.

DickBandit wrote:

Warboss Imbad Ironskull wrote:Hm never heard of it? What's it about?

And I've decided that my setting will span the period between the louisianna purchase to the end of the 19th century. This will allow it to cover everything from the initial exploration of the west up to the time of Poncho Villa.

You should set it in New Orleans where the French lost countless men to the dreaded MALARIA DAEMON!!

You definitely have a good idea. Wild West is perfect for all kinds of Fantasy elements because in a way it was the dark ages for America. Most of the towns were desolate, lawless, and all around chaotic. It's perfect!

Thank you for the support, as for the whole New Orleans bit I know that the city was a very vital port and was a major bonus to the U.S in the Louisianna Purchase. If you want feel free to create some stories, characters or fluff based off of the area I'm open to others creating their own characters and stories within the setting which I think is why I'm going to use such a broad period of time so that anyone who wants could create a character or story in the setting from a relevant time period of their choice.

I'm actually thinking up a character that's a Ogre Bounty Hunter who is some what of a mix between Rooster Cogburn and a Mexican Bandito.

The RPG Deadlands might be right up your alley. It's a supernatural take on Westerns, but the focus is more on zombies and ghosts.

That's actually the thing with the genre, there's plenty of supernatural western material, but it's mostly of the weird west kind of stuff, ghost stories and zombie civil war regiments, that kind of stuff. That tone seems to suit the genre better, matches the barren landscapes and great emptiness.

I'm not saying don't adapt it to a more traditional fantasy setting, by all means do because a new take is always a good thing. Just that it's important to understand why the old stories tended towards ghost stories, and how you might need to adapt to suit your new tone.

Oh, and I'd really steer clear of the racial metaphor. It'd be a fine theme if that's what you really wanted to analyse and comment on, but from the sound of things you don't... it's not something you want to drop into your setting half-assed.

Oh and I don't think demons (or daemons) will factor into the setting that gets a little too far into religious beliefs for my taste, and the same can be said for gods. So for instance if a person was to travel to Egypt during this time period (or any time period within the setting) they woulden't find Anubis or any of the other gods walking around and the same goes for any other religion. 1 it is partly not to step on anyones toes and 2 it's partly to keep the history of the world on track as well as it can be since having actual gods (of any religion) going around the earth would more then likely throw off earths history. Though people in the setting are of course free to follow any religion of their choice, and I'm sure religious views will come into it such as being religously biased based off of species.

And also there won't be duplicates of mythical creatures. For instance there are Dwarfs in the mythology of the Native Americans, Irish, Egyptian and Norse cultures and each is described in differant ways. So in this case there won't be 4 types of Dwarfs there will just be Dwarfs who come from differant areas and the populous of those areas describe them all differantly but they're apart of the same species.


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@Sebster: What do you mean racial metaphor?


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I did some more searching for referance material and found out that the genre of western hybrids is call Weird Westerns and includes Space Westerns (Star Wars), Sci-fi Westerns (Cowboys and Aliens), Superhero Westerns (Jonah Hex), Horror Westerns (Dark Tower series) and Steampunk Westerns (Wild Wild West). The list of examples brought to light some sources that totaly skipped my mind like Red Dead Redemption: Undead Nightmare (though this focuses more on the undead then I will), The Darkwatch game, an awesome 1977 movie called The White Buffalo as well as a couple differant books.

I've also decided that the undead won't play as big of a role in my setting (by undead I mean zombies and ghosts and such) unless someone has a specific magical ability that deals with corpses and ghosts. As was mentioned most of the Western hybrids are Western Horrors that deal with ghosts and zombies and such and I'm wanting to step away from that.

Warboss Imbad Ironskull wrote:@Sebster: What do you mean racial metaphor?

"Instead of segregation amongst the races there is segregation between the species, examples being that the centaur race or at least the majority of the race have replaced African Americans and others as slaves "

Something that loaded should either be a really dominant theme, or just left out. Half assing it will only cause trouble.

I did some more searching for referance material and found out that the genre of western hybrids is call Weird Westerns and includes Space Westerns (Star Wars), Sci-fi Westerns (Cowboys and Aliens), Superhero Westerns (Jonah Hex), Horror Westerns (Dark Tower series) and Steampunk Westerns (Wild Wild West). The list of examples brought to light some sources that totaly skipped my mind like Red Dead Redemption: Undead Nightmare (though this focuses more on the undead then I will), The Darkwatch game, an awesome 1977 movie called The White Buffalo as well as a couple differant books.

Yeah, really look up Deadlands, I think you'll find it a great source of inspiration.

Warboss Imbad Ironskull wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:

Warboss Imbad Ironskull wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:Never heard of warmachine, huh?

Anyway, as for time period, most westerns (and thus the time period everyone thinks of in terms of western theme) is set in the 'old west,' basically after the civil war right up to shortly after the turn of the century(and encompasses the indian wars and manifest destiny), so that is when I would place the setting. Really, there is nothing for you to do in terms of pre-civil war time period. The 'wild west' didn't really get started until after the war and the
westward migration it spawned.

Yes I have heard of Warmachine as well as hordes and in my opinion it in no way combines the genres of a western with fantasy. At least not in the sense that I'm talking about.

Westerns can and are spread throughout the entire time period from when trappers and settelers started moving west (which happened before the civil war though there was a great amount of western migration around the civil war when it was decided that states would vote on wether or not they allowed slavery) up untill the end of the century. There is plenty that could be done pre civil war.

I disagree. The pre civil war westward migration was much more limited in scope and primarily focused on settling the west coast, and is more of an oregon trail type deal, rather than the cowboys and indians, US marshals, bandits, trains, cattle rustlers, and saloons style old west/american interior that you seem intent on replicating. The transcontinental railroad for instance, didnt begin construction until 1863, and didn't begin service until 69, 4 years after the civil war ended.

Well no offense but your opinion of what the old west is and my opinion of what it is are differant and I've chosen to go with mine. The western genre is not just limited to the period your thinking of and I've decided I'm not going to limit it to just civil war and after since there where significant events in history that happen prior to the civil war that are considered to be apart of the old west and I'll be editing my OP to show this. If there are any limitations in scope for the pre civil war period it's because there are limitations on the persons imagination who is using the period, not because there is a lack of content.

Also just for the record the Trail of Tears began in 1831, the annexation of Texas was in 1845, the idea of Manifest Destiny began during European colonization but was coined in the 1840's and the Indian Wars where in the 1850's all of which happened before the U.S Civil war which began in 1861.

Trail of Tears, Annexation of Texas, Louisiana Purchase, etc. aren't really the old/wild west. What you're talking about is trailblazers/western exploration which is well before the six shooters at dawn type setting that the old west implies. Its not a matter of opinion, thats a fact, do a search on the term "old west" and pretty much every historical source you'll find it will define it as post civil war through to pre ww1. As for the Indian Wars while they did preceed the Civil War (in fact, they technically preceed the establishment of the US), most of the well known Indian wars occurred during or after the Civil War (plains wars, geronimo, custers last stand, Apache Wars, Navajo Wars, Red Clouds War, Great Sioux War, etc.).

At the end of the day, its your setting to do with as you please, just saying that you're going to mislead people using a term that the general population associates with something else. Also, you're going to have a tough time condensing a roughly 100 year period of history into a cohesive setting, especially when that 100 year period of time happens to have the Industrial Revolution sitting dead center of the time period. Railroads in the US were virtually nonexistent in the early part of the period you've defined, you're looking at muzzle loaders for the most part, no revolvers until much later, mining was extremely limited in scope, most people on the frontier were homesteaders/farmers, ranching didn't really kick in until the 1840s and later, no saloons, etc. etc. In short, you have to find a way to reconcile the times of Lewis and Clark, Daniel Boon, and Zebulon Pike with the times of Billy the Kid, George Custer, Wyatt Earp, and Jesse James.

Yeah it's a bit early compared to the period I'm looking at but not far from it I mean President Andrew Jackson (who facilitated the Louisianna purchase) was only the 3rd president of the U.S so it wasen't too long after the colonial period. I think I'm going to be making a trip to the local library when I get a chance and I'll deffinitly see if they have it.

Andrew Jackson was the 7th president. Thomas Jefferson was the 3rd President, he initiated the Lousiana Purchase (in 1803).

I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that it would be done half cocked instead of being done thuroughly especially since I was giving just 2 examples out of an entire setting. And it isn't a racial metaphor I'm not using Centaurs to represent African Americans or Native Americans or Dwarfs to represent the Irish and Chinese from the period I'm adapting the setting to reflect how things would have been differant with the inclusion of the various mythical species and creatures.

And since this setting follows the time line of the American west and the issues of slavery and segregation within the west will be present at the relevant times in the settings history just like they where in the real world. It was never going to be just something I mentioned for kicks.

Warboss Imbad Ironskull wrote:I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that it would be done half cocked instead of being done thuroughly especially since I was giving just 2 examples out of an entire setting. And it isn't a racial metaphor I'm not using Centaurs to represent African Americans or Native Americans or Dwarfs to represent the Irish and Chinese from the period I'm adapting the setting to reflect how things would have been differant with the inclusion of the various mythical species and creatures.

And since this setting follows the time line of the American west and the issues of slavery and segregation within the west will be present at the relevant times in the settings history just like they where in the real world. It was never going to be just something I mentioned for kicks.

Thing is, after mentioning that you'd have centaurs replacing black men, you then go on to say how there'd still be ogre sheriffs, and while there'd be segregation you could still have multi-nation gangs if you wanted. Well, either there are social restrictions based on species, or there are not.

I'm just trying to say, if you include this it will by it's nature be a dominant theme in the work, and as a dominant theme it has to be consistantly shown. It isn't possible to have a setting full of the weird and wonderful, oh and also slavery that directly parallels US race relations in the 19th century, but we only mention that from time to time when it's cool.

Look, if you're confident that you can bring the theme in an interesting way, then rock on.

chaos0xomega wrote:

Warboss Imbad Ironskull wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:

Warboss Imbad Ironskull wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:Never heard of warmachine, huh?

Anyway, as for time period, most westerns (and thus the time period everyone thinks of in terms of western theme) is set in the 'old west,' basically after the civil war right up to shortly after the turn of the century(and encompasses the indian wars and manifest destiny), so that is when I would place the setting. Really, there is nothing for you to do in terms of pre-civil war time period. The 'wild west' didn't really get started until after the war and the
westward migration it spawned.

Yes I have heard of Warmachine as well as hordes and in my opinion it in no way combines the genres of a western with fantasy. At least not in the sense that I'm talking about.

Westerns can and are spread throughout the entire time period from when trappers and settelers started moving west (which happened before the civil war though there was a great amount of western migration around the civil war when it was decided that states would vote on wether or not they allowed slavery) up untill the end of the century. There is plenty that could be done pre civil war.

I disagree. The pre civil war westward migration was much more limited in scope and primarily focused on settling the west coast, and is more of an oregon trail type deal, rather than the cowboys and indians, US marshals, bandits, trains, cattle rustlers, and saloons style old west/american interior that you seem intent on replicating. The transcontinental railroad for instance, didnt begin construction until 1863, and didn't begin service until 69, 4 years after the civil war ended.

Well no offense but your opinion of what the old west is and my opinion of what it is are differant and I've chosen to go with mine. The western genre is not just limited to the period your thinking of and I've decided I'm not going to limit it to just civil war and after since there where significant events in history that happen prior to the civil war that are considered to be apart of the old west and I'll be editing my OP to show this. If there are any limitations in scope for the pre civil war period it's because there are limitations on the persons imagination who is using the period, not because there is a lack of content.

Also just for the record the Trail of Tears began in 1831, the annexation of Texas was in 1845, the idea of Manifest Destiny began during European colonization but was coined in the 1840's and the Indian Wars where in the 1850's all of which happened before the U.S Civil war which began in 1861.

Trail of Tears, Annexation of Texas, Louisiana Purchase, etc. aren't really the old/wild west. What you're talking about is trailblazers/western exploration which is well before the six shooters at dawn type setting that the old west implies. Its not a matter of opinion, thats a fact, do a search on the term "old west" and pretty much every historical source you'll find it will define it as post civil war through to pre ww1. As for the Indian Wars while they did preceed the Civil War (in fact, they technically preceed the establishment of the US), most of the well known Indian wars occurred during or after the Civil War (plains wars, geronimo, custers last stand, Apache Wars, Navajo Wars, Red Clouds War, Great Sioux War, etc.).

At the end of the day, its your setting to do with as you please, just saying that you're going to mislead people using a term that the general population associates with something else.

1. Don't take this wrong but you do not speak for the general population. It may be something that you associate with something else as you keep describing the period known as the Wild West but the term the Old West covers most of the entirety of the 19th century. And with all due respect I'm done arguing with you on this as it is getting my thread nowhere, just because you say it's a fact does not make it so.

2. In terms of a genre a Western covers the entire time period that I have discussed which is why there are novels, movies, games, comic books and other media which cover said events and are classified as westerns during the Old West period.

Also, you're going to have a tough time condensing a roughly 100 year period of history into a cohesive setting, especially when that 100 year period of time happens to have the Industrial Revolution sitting dead center of the time period. Railroads in the US were virtually nonexistent in the early part of the period you've defined, you're looking at muzzle loaders for the most part, no revolvers until much later, mining was extremely limited in scope, most people on the frontier were homesteaders/farmers, ranching didn't really kick in until the 1840s and later, no saloons, etc. etc. In short, you have to find a way to reconcile the times of Lewis and Clark, Daniel Boon, and Zebulon Pike with the times of Billy the Kid, George Custer, Wyatt Earp, and Jesse James.

I don't think you get it, I'm not condensing anything. The setting is going to follow history as it actually happened from the time of the Louisianna purchase to the period following the Civil War as I've said a number of times. I don't need to squeeze the changes in technology or the various historical figures together because they're all going to exist in their relevant times just in an alternate setting.

Yeah it's a bit early compared to the period I'm looking at but not far from it I mean President Andrew Jackson (who facilitated the Louisianna purchase) was only the 3rd president of the U.S so it wasen't too long after the colonial period. I think I'm going to be making a trip to the local library when I get a chance and I'll deffinitly see if they have it.

Andrew Jackson was the 7th president. Thomas Jefferson was the 3rd President, he initiated the Lousiana Purchase (in 1803).

I stand corrected on who the 3rd president was but everything else still stands. There is still plenty of scope prior to the civil war and my setting will cover the entirety of the Old West.


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sebster wrote:

Warboss Imbad Ironskull wrote:I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that it would be done half cocked instead of being done thuroughly especially since I was giving just 2 examples out of an entire setting. And it isn't a racial metaphor I'm not using Centaurs to represent African Americans or Native Americans or Dwarfs to represent the Irish and Chinese from the period I'm adapting the setting to reflect how things would have been differant with the inclusion of the various mythical species and creatures.

And since this setting follows the time line of the American west and the issues of slavery and segregation within the west will be present at the relevant times in the settings history just like they where in the real world. It was never going to be just something I mentioned for kicks.

Thing is, after mentioning that you'd have centaurs replacing black men, you then go on to say how there'd still be ogre sheriffs, and while there'd be segregation you could still have multi-nation gangs if you wanted. Well, either there are social restrictions based on species, or there are not.

Except that segregation in actual history did not apply to every single race which is why segregation in my setting won't apply to every single species. And at the same time segregation between races in actual history was not practiced everywhere and it's the same in my setting between the species. I said that segregation would be based on species instead of race, I never said it would apply to every species ya see?

It isn't possible to have a setting full of the weird and wonderful, oh and also slavery that directly parallels US race relations in the 19th century, but we only mention that from time to time when it's cool.

Actually it is very possible and mirrors actual history in that not every race was segregated against and not every place in the U.S practiced segregation. And as I said I didn't just throw those examples in there for kicks so nothing was mentioned because "it's cool". So you don't have to worry because your qualms about my setting aren't something that needs to be worried about.

Sounds good. I understand what your trying to do in regards to the segregation and I think it's a good idea. However I would suggest that the different species are less seperarted than races were at the time- make centaurs generally slaves but with a number of free ones. This would (IMO) make it slightly more interesting as otherwise it would be very unlikely to have centaurs interacting with other species.

Also why centaurs as slaves. Ogres are generally seen as strong and stupid which are two idea traits for slaves. I imagine trapping one would be much easier than capturing a centaur.

Another idea is to consider expanding the background history. You said you wanted to keep it like real history but having all these magic creatures / abilities will make a difference. Try coming up with some key events and putting them in the setting. Did Ogres play a major part in a war? Is there a famous dwarve inventor who's inventions have changed the setting? Some big events may have gone the other way or just not happened. You can keep it roughly true to history but still add some points where it has gone a different route. Having an identical world is less interesting a much less believable (if you change the inhabitants it makes sense other things will change).

Firefly.

I'd proffer western pre civil war is predominant "early settler" or "mountain man" type variety.
Pre Civil war, the natives are the real power, and the protagonists are in a new land.
Post civil War, the natives have lost power. It may be a new land, but it is no longer foreign.

Have you checked the rp forum?

Some time ago their was a rp wich combined western with fantasy...

here it is:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/312715.page

It died after some 10 pages, but could be helpfull, for inspiration?

sebster wrote:

Warboss Imbad Ironskull wrote:@Sebster: What do you mean racial metaphor?

"Instead of segregation amongst the races there is segregation between the species, examples being that the centaur race or at least the majority of the race have replaced African Americans and others as slaves "

Something that loaded should either be a really dominant theme, or just left out. Half assing it will only cause trouble.

I was working on a wild west skirmish game inspired by Sunset Riders, Bonanza and with just a hint of cartoonishness (i.e. one of the Gauchos could load different peppers in his shotgun to make "pepper spray" shots). I purposely added a disclaimer at the beginning to point out that this game was based on an idealized world where racism was common and stereotypes were an important factor to image, so they would be played up to. There's no shame in this at all, IMO, just be upfront about it. If you watch the old western shows (Gunsmoke and, again, Bonanza) racism pops up a lot.

4M2A wrote:Sounds good. I understand what your trying to do in regards to the segregation and I think it's a good idea. However I would suggest that the different species are less seperarted than races were at the time- make centaurs generally slaves but with a number of free ones. This would (IMO) make it slightly more interesting as otherwise it would be very unlikely to have centaurs interacting with other species.

I actually said as much in my OP I said that the Centaur race or at least the majority of it are enslaved. There where multiple races who where subject to slavery in the Old West but not every individual from those races was a slave.

Also why centaurs as slaves. Ogres are generally seen as strong and stupid which are two idea traits for slaves. I imagine trapping one would be much easier than capturing a centaur.

Believe it or not if you go back to the original mythology of the 2 species it's actually the opposite. In French mythology where the Ogre originates they are described as being strong with a huge apetite but are never described as being overly stupid, their "dimness" is a result of relativly modern ideas about them. Centaurs on the other hand are traditionally described as unintelligent, brutish, susceptable to drink and are generally described as being barbaric with one exception (Chiron).

Now with most species in the setting I'm going to try and stick as close as I can to their original description vs how they've been adapted for modern media (goblins won't be green with big noses) but that dosen't mean the entire race of centaurs will be idiotic drunks or that every ogre will be as sharp as a knife.

But in terms of slavery Centaurs would make better slaves in that they combine the (near) intelligence of a man with the strength and lode bearing abilities of a horse, catching them woulden't be much harder then rounding up herds of wild horses BUT that's if someone would want recently enslaved centaurs (who would be resistant and free spirited) vs buying centaurs whose family has been enslaved for generations. And at the same time Ogres woulden't make profitable slaves as they would have to be fed large amounts. Now Centaurs will be the main species where slaves are taken from but they won't be the only species.

Another idea is to consider expanding the background history. You said you wanted to keep it like real history but having all these magic creatures / abilities will make a difference. Try coming up with some key events and putting them in the setting. Did Ogres play a major part in a war? Is there a famous dwarve inventor who's inventions have changed the setting? Some big events may have gone the other way or just not happened.

This thread is mainly just to get my idea out there and to find material I can use as inspiration, I haven't really uncovered any of my bigger ideas as to how magic and the mythological creatures have affected things in the setting but I promise that what you're suggesting is something I already have planned and I know it was just an example but I'm going to say right now about the Dwarf inventor a big resounding NO the technology is going to be accurate to the period depending on which section you're talking about as I said in the OP.

You can keep it roughly true to history but still add some points where it has gone a different route. Having an identical world is less interesting a much less believable (if you change the inhabitants it makes sense other things will change).

I agree, that's why I said earlier that it will follow the course of earths history but with some differances caused by introduction of magic and the mythological creatures

Frazzled wrote:Firefly.

I'd proffer western pre civil war is predominant "early settler" or "mountain man" type variety.
Pre Civil war, the natives are the real power, and the protagonists are in a new land.
Post civil War, the natives have lost power. It may be a new land, but it is no longer foreign.

Firefly isn't a Fantasy Western it's a Space Western though it does fall under the Weird Western genre.

I'm not sure what you're saying in the second part? Are you saying what time period of the Old West you'd prefer it take place in?

sillyboy wrote:Have you checked the rp forum?

Some time ago their was a rp wich combined western with fantasy...

here it is:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/312715.page

It died after some 10 pages, but could be helpfull, for inspiration?

I'll deffinitly give it a look thanks

Cannerus_The_Unbearable wrote:

sebster wrote:

Warboss Imbad Ironskull wrote:@Sebster: What do you mean racial metaphor?

"Instead of segregation amongst the races there is segregation between the species, examples being that the centaur race or at least the majority of the race have replaced African Americans and others as slaves "

Something that loaded should either be a really dominant theme, or just left out. Half assing it will only cause trouble.

I was working on a wild west skirmish game inspired by Sunset Riders, Bonanza and with just a hint of cartoonishness (i.e. one of the Gauchos could load different peppers in his shotgun to make "pepper spray" shots). I purposely added a disclaimer at the beginning to point out that this game was based on an idealized world where racism was common and stereotypes were an important factor to image, so they would be played up to. There's no shame in this at all, IMO, just be upfront about it. If you watch the old western shows (Gunsmoke and, again, Bonanza) racism pops up a lot.

Indead it does and like a said prominant factors that existed in the Old West will exist just as prominantly in this setting during their relevant times i.e slavery, Indian relations, westward expansion, social standard, the wars, political reform, technological revolutions etc.

This thread is mainly just to get my idea out there and to find material I can use as inspiration, I haven't really uncovered any of my bigger ideas as to how magic and the mythological creatures have affected things in the setting but I promise that what you're suggesting is something I already have planned and I know it was just an example but I'm going to say right now about the Dwarf inventor a big resounding NO the technology is going to be accurate to the period depending on which section you're talking about as I said in the OP.

I didn't mean increasing the technology level. There was still a lot of new inventing happening at the time. You could easily replace a few historical figures with fantasy creatures that fit -e.g. dawrves being the pioneers of new weapons or transportation.

That's true but I don't really want to replace historical figures, probably will just add them in as aids. Like certain things where invented with the aid of etc.

Warboss Imbad Ironskull wrote:Except that segregation in actual history did not apply to every single race which is why segregation in my setting won't apply to every single species. And at the same time segregation between races in actual history was not practiced everywhere and it's the same in my setting between the species. I said that segregation would be based on species instead of race, I never said it would apply to every species ya see?

That explanation isn't even remotely clear from what you originally wrote. Go back and reread it, the more obvious interpretation is one saying that while segregation and various forms of racism exist, but people can ignore those and play against type if they (which to the vast majority of people who don't share your historical knowledge of the myths of ogres, would be the natural way to take that comment).

World creation is a really challenging, complex thing. You're going to rely on lots of people to help you out with various historical details, and with making your setting interesting and coherent. Inevitably, at times, you will make errors, or write something in an unclear manner and it will be intepreted the wrong way by someone. I would really recommend in future you don't get so snippy at anyone for just making a comment, it will not encourage people to help you with this project.

But more than anything, check out Deadlands.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Cannerus_The_Unbearable wrote:I was working on a wild west skirmish game inspired by Sunset Riders, Bonanza and with just a hint of cartoonishness (i.e. one of the Gauchos could load different peppers in his shotgun to make "pepper spray" shots). I purposely added a disclaimer at the beginning to point out that this game was based on an idealized world where racism was common and stereotypes were an important factor to image, so they would be played up to. There's no shame in this at all, IMO, just be upfront about it. If you watch the old western shows (Gunsmoke and, again, Bonanza) racism pops up a lot.

Sounds like a fun game, if it's done well.

I agree that the point is to be upfront about it, but also to be consistent. My problem with the way it was originally written by the OP was that he seemed to be half-assing it, saying there is segregation and racism in this game but you can ignore it and have mixed gangs and characters against type if you want.

From my experience with roleplaying, I've found the only way to handle strong themes like that is to say 'this game will have this thing, if that's okay let's play'. Just having it kind of there in the background, means you don't dedicate enough time to do anything worthwhile with it, but it will still annoy anyone who doesn't want to deal with that kind of thing in their gaming.

sebster wrote:

Warboss Imbad Ironskull wrote:Except that segregation in actual history did not apply to every single race which is why segregation in my setting won't apply to every single species. And at the same time segregation between races in actual history was not practiced everywhere and it's the same in my setting between the species. I said that segregation would be based on species instead of race, I never said it would apply to every species ya see?

That explanation isn't even remotely clear from what you originally wrote. Go back and reread it, the more obvious interpretation is one saying that while segregation and various forms of racism exist, but people can ignore those and play against type if they (which to the vast majority of people who don't share your historical knowledge of the myths of ogres, would be the natural way to take that comment).

In my OP I said that segregation would be based off of species instead of race, it's stated plain and clear. No where in my OP or in subsequent posts did I say that it would apply to every species. So it would be perfectly clear to anyone who knows what segregation is historically that it would not apply to every species since racial segregation didn't affect every race.

World creation is a really challenging, complex thing. You're going to rely on lots of people to help you out with various historical details, and with making your setting interesting and coherent. Inevitably, at times, you will make errors, or write something in an unclear manner and it will be intepreted the wrong way by someone. I would really recommend in future you don't get so snippy at anyone for just making a comment, it will not encourage people to help you with this project.

I'm gonna ignore this since there was absolutly nothing "snippy" about what I put. I responded to your post, just because it didn't agree with what you thought dosen't mean it was being snippy.

Cannerus_The_Unbearable wrote:

I was working on a wild west skirmish game inspired by Sunset Riders, Bonanza and with just a hint of cartoonishness (i.e. one of the Gauchos could load different peppers in his shotgun to make "pepper spray" shots). I purposely added a disclaimer at the beginning to point out that this game was based on an idealized world where racism was common and stereotypes were an important factor to image, so they would be played up to. There's no shame in this at all, IMO, just be upfront about it. If you watch the old western shows (Gunsmoke and, again, Bonanza) racism pops up a lot.

Sounds like a fun game, if it's done well.

I agree that the point is to be upfront about it, but also to be consistent. My problem with the way it was originally written by the OP was that he seemed to be half-assing it, saying there is segregation and racism in this game but you can ignore it and have mixed gangs and characters against type if you want.

I find this funny Sebster and it reminds me why I have you ignored. You seem to not realise (though I've already said it) that racism existed in the Old West yet not everyone was racist. Segregation existed in the Old West yet not everyone was segregated against. So you seem to think that because I said there will be segregation based off of species that every species needs to be segregated against. Except hostory prooves that isn't the case and so I'm the one being consistant and you're the one suggesting I do something inconsistant with the setting.


The only thing being done half assed is your repeated attempts to try and find fault with my idea after I've told you that what you think is going to happen isn't going to happen. Your "concern" about an element of my setting has been noted and I've made it clear that it isn't something to be worried about. You don't want to take my word for it then fine I don't care, but quit saying that I'm going to be doing something half-assed just because of how you took something which no one else has had a problem understanding.

Sebster if Warboss has told you that what he put in the OP is just an example of how segregation will differ in his setting but will be just as prominent as it was in the real west why do you keep going on that he's going to be doing it half assed? If he told you that how you think it's going to be done is wrong then take his word for it and move on. Otherwise it seems like you're just baiting for a argument which I think Warboss has taken

And there where in fact gangs in the Wild West that where multiracial even though there was segregation at the time as it was mainly based off of personal choice and the region. Segregation and racism was more evident in the East then the West for example but that dosen't mean that every person who lived in the East was racist or practiced segregation just like not every person in the West was open to integration and enjoyed the company of every race.

sebster wrote:

Warboss Imbad Ironskull wrote:Except that segregation in actual history did not apply to every single race which is why segregation in my setting won't apply to every single species. And at the same time segregation between races in actual history was not practiced everywhere and it's the same in my setting between the species. I said that segregation would be based on species instead of race, I never said it would apply to every species ya see?

Go back and reread it, the more obvious interpretation

I was going to point this out lastnight but forgot. The obvious interpretation of what Warboss said in his OP is not what you seem to think, it's that segregation will be based off of species instead of race. So yes racism and segregation will exist but they'll exist in the same context that they did in actual history.

World creation is a really challenging, complex thing. You're going to rely on lots of people to help you out with various historical details, and with making your setting interesting and coherent. Inevitably, at times, you will make errors, or write something in an unclear manner and it will be intepreted the wrong way by someone. I would really recommend in future you don't get so snippy at anyone for just making a comment, it will not encourage people to help you with this project.

Kind of being hypocritical when you call someone snippy towards someone who made a comment yet the reason your calling him snippy is because he commented on your post and told you what you where worried about was something that didn't need to be worried about. It's like you made the comment "either do it right or don't do it at all" and expected him not to say anything back positive or negative, especially since nothing but your own opinion said he was going to be doing it wrong.

Cannerus_The_Unbearable wrote:

I was working on a wild west skirmish game inspired by Sunset Riders, Bonanza and with just a hint of cartoonishness (i.e. one of the Gauchos could load different peppers in his shotgun to make "pepper spray" shots). I purposely added a disclaimer at the beginning to point out that this game was based on an idealized world where racism was common and stereotypes were an important factor to image, so they would be played up to. There's no shame in this at all, IMO, just be upfront about it. If you watch the old western shows (Gunsmoke and, again, Bonanza) racism pops up a lot.

Sounds like a fun game, if it's done well.

I agree that the point is to be upfront about it, but also to be consistent. My problem with the way it was originally written by the OP was that he seemed to be half-assing it, saying there is segregation and racism in this game but you can ignore it and have mixed gangs and characters against type if you want.

From my experience with roleplaying, I've found the only way to handle strong themes like that is to say 'this game will have this thing, if that's okay let's play'. Just having it kind of there in the background, means you don't dedicate enough time to do anything worthwhile with it, but it will still annoy anyone who doesn't want to deal with that kind of thing in their gaming.

The first thing I noticed with this is that you seem to think this whole setting is being created as some kind of game or a world for an RPG. Warboss said in the OP that this wasen't the case and that he's creating this setting for the fun of it but that others could create an RPG or their own stories based off of the setting if they wished.

The second thing is that you are saying that the way Warboss worded things in his OP led you to believe it would be done half assed and that it won't be consistant.

Instead of segregation amongst the races there is segregation between the species

This is exactly how he said it, how does this lead anyone to believe that segregation in his setting will be done half-assed? Better yet since you're the only one whose come to this conclusion how could this possibly lead you to believe it will be done half assed or will be inconsistant. All he's said (though he used fewer words) is that in his setting the existance of mythical humanoids has caused segregation to be focused more on species then race.

I'm not going to make assumptions about your historical knowledge but the idea that segregation won't apply to every species didn't have to be spelled out in his OP because anyone with a decent grasp of history knows that segregation didn't apply to everyone, neither did racism. And he actually does make it fairly clear in his OP that segregation dosen't apply to everyone and that not everyone is racist by putting his examples which shows creatures in roles they woulden't be able to have in a entirely segregationist society which America has never been.

So I'll admit I'm confused as to how you came to the conclusion that he'd be doing it half assed in the first place when all he did was mention how segregation would be affected in his setting and give a few examples of it. So unless you where just confused I think it's like I said earlier where you're just trying to make waves and bait an argument.

Savage Worlds Deadlands.

http://www.peginc.com/downloads.html#DLR

I'm not saying your ideas are the same just that it would be worth a look as an example of a Fantasy Wild West campaign setting.

Warboss Imbad Ironskull wrote:In my OP I said that segregation would be based off of species instead of race, it's stated plain and clear.

Yes, and you then made a series of comments that, to any plain text reading, sounded like 'oh but you can ignore all that if you want'. To 90% of people, 'you can have a gang of various races' and 'you can have ogre sheriffs' will be read as 'you can ignore segregation if you please'. Because you didn't make it clear that Ogres in your setting were unlike their most common depiction, and are considered intelligent.

You meant something different, and that's fine. When trying to describe a vision you'll often use assumptions from your setting that you understand, without realising that those assumptions are confusing to the rest of us.

I'm gonna ignore this since there was absolutly nothing "snippy" about what I put. I responded to your post, just because it didn't agree with what you thought dosen't mean it was being snippy.

That's clearly, obviously untrue. You got quite short with both myself and chaosOxomega, when both of us were simply trying to give advice.

I find this funny Sebster and it reminds me why I have you ignored.

So this is you not being snippy?

You seem to not realise (though I've already said it) that racism existed in the Old West yet not everyone was racist.

Ok, look, I've tried to be polite but this is just getting silly.

Well fething duh that racism had different effects on different groups, and that various individuals within a group held very different views on race (it really, really isn't as simple as 'some people weren't racist'). You are showing a grade school level of understanding of race relations, and you're doing a particularly poor job of explaining it.

You are going to try and bring that understanding into a setting where real, actual differences exist between species. Being different species, I'm going to guess they've got different attributes, some will be stronger, or smarter, or more skilled or whatever. And then you're going to give these species parallels in the real world. So the centaurs will be a parallel for black people, and will have in general across the species have actual tendencies towards unintelligence, brutality and drunkeness. Think about that.

I wish you good luck with your setting, but you really, really need to understand that the way you've handled criticism in this thread has been terrible. You invited commentary but absolutely nothing on board from anything anyone even mentioned. That is not how ideas are improved.