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I'm new to the hobby and having fun with orks (won my only game woo!), but my list has come up JUST barely over budget and I can't make up my mind.

1 KFF Bigmek
30 boyz +3 big shoota, Nob +pk/bp
30 boyz +3 big shoota, Nob +pk/bp
30 boyz +3 big shoota, Nob +pk/bp
10 grots, Runtherd
1 Kopter TL rokkits
1 Kopter TL rokkits
1 Kopter TL rokkits
3 Kans +rokkits
3 Kans +rokkits
15 Lootas

I come up to 1520 points... who gets the axe? I want to keep the grots, they hold objectives good... should I shave some boys out of those piles, or lose a kopter? I really, really enjoy the rokkit kopters. Maybe drop some big shootas? Ahhh can't decide...

If I drop all my big shootas I could afford to slap a powerklaw on a copter too. Are big shootas really that necessary? Seems like with all the running, they might get a single round of shots off.

Any other advice is welcome!

I find any shootas with orks a waste of points, ork are good at assault and their shooting is trash, drop the big shootas

oh and I would drop the kans for some deff dreads, but thats just my opinion

He is obviously running a kan wall, dropping them defeats the whole point of the army.

My advice would be using 4x20 boyz rather than 3x30. You get an additional nob, the mobs are better to maneuver through terrain and you're saving 25 points in total(10 less boyz -60, one less big shoota -5, additional nob +40).
You should also split up those lootaz into 3x5, as you can shoot different targets then and it's easier to find good shooting positions for each of them.

Also, with that army you shouldn't be running, but rather advancing and shooting.

Jidmah gives good advice, you don't need full mobs as much as you just need bodies to catch wounds for the Pks, and provide support shooting.

bombboy1252:

Deff dreads? Terrible advice, they aren't even close to being competitive.

Also, ork boyz suck in assault, its safer to shoot, even if they aren't good at it. Reason why i say they suck? Going at I2 (with furious charge 3) means you go last most of the time. Tons of attacks doesn't help when you lose a good chunk of the squad before they go, then even if you come ahead in points, you are behind in wounds, so you lose combat, and have to take nearly as many fearless wounds on 6s that you originally lost in combat. After all that, next turn you don't have FC (and are S3) and are not fearless and will be most likely breaking. They can pick on crap troops like tactical squads and non blobbed IG units, but against anything decent in assault, or if they don't get the charge, they will die.

The don't suck in assault; tau, guardsmen and tac-beakies do. But you do much better in games if you act as if they suck

I said the dreads were my opinion....and when I use orks, i just make a green wall and charge forward, works for me

I would think that dropping a copta for buzzcoptas would be very competitive as that alpha strike can make or break certain games. Reducing your boys is a good option as mentioned. Dropping kans for dreds is a bad option.

Reason kans with rokkits (best BS skill you will find in codex) and rokkits can pop transports from a distance, destroy hordes and cause enough threat to make your opponent forget about those PK's behind them. The dread, takes a long time to reach, has BS2 and will likely be targeted first and killed relatively easy with melta, las, or plasma.

Shoota boys don't suck in assault they are terrific! Especially because they run with a PK nob. It is not safer to shot. they get 2 attacks +1 on charge and if the Waaaugh!! is timed right BOOM. Great assault!

Jidmah wrote:He is obviously running a kan wall, dropping them defeats the whole point of the army.

My advice would be using 4x20 boyz rather than 3x30. You get an additional nob, the mobs are better to maneuver through terrain and you're saving 25 points in total(10 less boyz -60, one less big shoota -5, additional nob +40).
You should also split up those lootaz into 3x5, as you can shoot different targets then and it's easier to find good shooting positions for each of them.

Also, with that army you shouldn't be running, but rather advancing and shooting.

I am liking the sound of this. I think you're saying go from 9 total big shootas to 8, and put 2 in each squad? If that puts me at 1495 I think I'll keep the extra shoota.

I was advised that lootas do better in one big blob, as they will break and run quite easily in small groups. I had my big blob of 15 stuck in terrain taking down crisis suits all game. Won't groups of 5 most likely leave the table if they are shot once?

Single units only get to shoot one target, and with lootas, often over kill. When they get shot, they run off all together (its not hard to drop them down quite a bit with a blast or two, and added shooting). Multiple small units on the other hand, can fire at more targets, when one unit runs or is destroyed, you still have others. Also it mitigates the whole rolling 1 on D3 for number of shots. The more sources, the more reliable the total output is.

I didn't think about that... rolling for deffguns 3 times might get their average shots higher. I'll try it next time I play

If you want to keep your list, could just drop 1 boy from each mob. 2 points over isn't anything to complain about.

Anvildude wrote:If you want to keep your list, could just drop 1 boy from each mob. 2 points over isn't anything to complain about.

...except that defeats the whole point of having a set points limit. The limit is the limit is the limit, period.

Scuzball wrote:I am liking the sound of this. I think you're saying go from 9 total big shootas to 8, and put 2 in each squad? If that puts me at 1495 I think I'll keep the extra shoota.

I was advised that lootas do better in one big blob, as they will break and run quite easily in small groups. I had my big blob of 15 stuck in terrain taking down crisis suits all game. Won't groups of 5 most likely leave the table if they are shot once?

You'd have 4 mobs of 20 then and each one could only take to big shootas. You could use the 5 points on any other random upgrade though.

take warbuggies with TL rokkits instead of deffkoptas, they have AV and also have same weapon... only reason to take koptas is for big booms or buzzsaws and you're not runnign those... frees up 30 points taking you 10 below at 1490 for maybe 3 mroe grots or wherever else you want to spend 10 points

I also agree big shootas are les suseful than say 3 rokkits, but it'd be hard to find the points for those

notabot187 wrote:Single units only get to shoot one target, and with lootas, often over kill. When they get shot, they run off all together (its not hard to drop them down quite a bit with a blast or two, and added shooting). Multiple small units on the other hand, can fire at more targets, when one unit runs or is destroyed, you still have others. Also it mitigates the whole rolling 1 on D3 for number of shots. The more sources, the more reliable the total output is.

I am a fairly new player and recently bought a full unit of lootas. I loved the idea of being able to shoot 45 shots in one phase, its ridiculous (the reason i play orks). But i've found that their BS is just awful and i would imagine if they were split into smaller groups they would miss most of the targets because of the obviously lower numbers.

Is there any way to counter that, besides just rolling awesome?

Nope. Only units in the Ork Dex with more than BS2 are the Grots, whether slogging, in Kanz, or with Big Gunz. And they're only BS3.

Kwantity is a Kwalitie all it's own.

Steak wrote:

notabot187 wrote:Single units only get to shoot one target, and with lootas, often over kill. When they get shot, they run off all together (its not hard to drop them down quite a bit with a blast or two, and added shooting). Multiple small units on the other hand, can fire at more targets, when one unit runs or is destroyed, you still have others. Also it mitigates the whole rolling 1 on D3 for number of shots. The more sources, the more reliable the total output is.

I am a fairly new player and recently bought a full unit of lootas. I loved the idea of being able to shoot 45 shots in one phase, its ridiculous (the reason i play orks). But i've found that their BS is just awful and i would imagine if they were split into smaller groups they would miss most of the targets because of the obviously lower numbers.

Is there any way to counter that, besides just rolling awesome?

15 lootas in 1 unit, on average, puts out 2 shots per loota per turn during the course of the game. 3 units of 5 lootas, on average, puts out 2 shots per loota per turn during the course of the game. The chances of missing are the same, if you fail with one unit, just shoot a different unit at the same target.

The reason why you take small units is so when you roll that 1 shot per model, you don't have 15 guys with one shot, you have 5 guys with one shot, and 10 guys in 2 units who still have a chance of rolling better. Of course this also means your 3 shots are less likely, but I'm a big fan of consistent performance, more units means you get results closer to the average.

5 Lootaz hit any given target slightly more often as three heavy weapon teams with autocannons, point value is exactly the same. The chance of a unit of five lootaz to stop a rhino is about 80%. It's not as bad as it looks. Also 15 lootaz shoot just as often as 3x5 lootaz, with added survivability and the option to shoot at three different targets, rather than totally annihilate one.
Of course, if you need your slots for other elites, 15 lootaz are perfectly fine.

notabot187 wrote:The chances of missing are the same, if you fail with one unit, just shoot a different unit at the same target

As i said im a newer player. So, you dont have to declare all your targets in the shooting phase at once? You can shoot, miss/not kill the unit, then target it with the next, and so on?

Aside from big mobs just looking more fun, its also satisfying to roll a fistfull of dice

Steak wrote:

notabot187 wrote:The chances of missing are the same, if you fail with one unit, just shoot a different unit at the same target

As i said im a newer player. So, you dont have to declare all your targets in the shooting phase at once? You can shoot, miss/not kill the unit, then target it with the next, and so on?

Aside from big mobs just looking more fun, its also satisfying to roll a fistfull of dice

Yes, you declare each shooting squad individually and sequentially. So you can shoot at something until it dies or you get bored.
45 shots is overkill on anything you should be shooting with Lootas anyway. 10-15 is usually enough. While it may be more fun, its less tactically sound (hence why it isn't typically suggested in the 40k tactics forum). If you want to run full squads of lootas, go for it, but understand that there are many tactical considerations which point to that not being optimal. That is all.

Magister187 wrote: While it may be more fun, its less tactically sound (hence why it isn't typically suggested in the 40k tactics forum). If you want to run full squads of lootas, go for it, but understand that there are many tactical considerations which point to that not being optimal. That is all.

Oh, definitely. I agree now that it would be more efficient to split them up, wasn't trying to imply that mine was the better decision.

I'm with dropping 1 of the deffkopters to add buzzsaws to the other two with the extra 5 points you have left from reducing the mob sizes. also especialy at 1500 points I would split the lootas into three 5 man squads.

Small loota squads are better then 1 large squad but unless scuzball wants to lose his kans he does not have that option and a kanwall without kans isn't nearly as effective youd be better off buying trucks and wagons if you drop the kans to split the lootas up more.

Kanz and Lootaz have no bearing on each other's unit size. Your post is also very close to unreadable due to missing punctuation.

notabot187 wrote:Deff dreads? Terrible advice, they aren't even close to being competitive.

Also, ork boyz suck in assault, its safer to shoot, even if they aren't good at it. Reason why i say they suck? Going at I2 (with furious charge 3) means you go last most of the time. Tons of attacks doesn't help when you lose a good chunk of the squad before they go, then even if you come ahead in points, you are behind in wounds, so you lose combat, and have to take nearly as many fearless wounds on 6s that you originally lost in combat. After all that, next turn you don't have FC (and are S3) and are not fearless and will be most likely breaking. They can pick on crap troops like tactical squads and non blobbed IG units, but against anything decent in assault, or if they don't get the charge, they will die.

I totaly disagree on Deff Dreads sucking. I field two whenever I can (Big Mek HQs means these count as Troops). Ideally, equiped with one or two scorchas and combat weapons in the other slots. Adding Armour plates and Grot riggers give you points cost of 100 (with 2 scorchas & 2 combat weapons) or 110 (1 scorcha & 3 combat weapons). These have two major advantage on the battlefield. One, if you get within assault range you can scorcha them first. As it is a template weapon you can ignore the poor ork BS and get auto hits. Then when you assault, unless you it a unit with mutiple power fists, there is very little that is going to hurt you whilst you cush their puuny non-ork bodies .

Two, because of the damage they do in CC, most players will divert a disproporitionately large amount of resources to destroying them,leaving you time tomove your bulk of your army into assault range.

As for Ork sucking in CC,once again,I do not agree.Orks are at their best in assault. Yes, you will go last in combat. Thats why you comein large mobs. However, unless you hit an elite assault unit, your enemy will not put a big enough dent in you to stop your boyz. Choppa/Slugga boyz get 4 attacks on the charge, with ws 4 and str4. That will hurt any trops an still trouble most elites.

Sorry thought kans where elite for a second havent seen ork dex in a while.

Talon1 wrote:Choppa/Slugga boyz get 4 attacks on the charge

1 attack from assault, 2 from their Attacks, and where does the 4th come from? I've been playing them as having 3 when assaulting.

Steak wrote:

Talon1 wrote:Choppa/Slugga boyz get 4 attacks on the charge

1 attack from assault, 2 from their Attacks, and where does the 4th come from? I've been playing them as having 3 when assaulting.

base 2 attacks plus 1 for close combat waepon, 1 for charge.

I used to play it as 3 on the charge thinking it was 2 if you had slugga/choppa and 1 if you had a shoota, but i was told i was cheating myself and base 2 attacks goes to 3 if close combat wweapon equiped ie slugga/chopppa

If you are aiming to play a 1500pts game, nothing needs to go.

You are allowed 50pts either way.

At least, around here.

You are getting good advice. Keep the Kans for your Kanwall coversave. Try a Copta with a buzzsaw - you will have fun with that! Dreads can be good - but only if you also run Kans (then there are too many walkers to shoot at!) Try a dreadbash with Kans & Dreads and fewer boys sometime when you get all those models.

I think your list is pretty much ready to go! I would run one buzzcopta (for first turn auto-hit shenanigans) and a couple of rocket buggies, trim your mobs to fit and go. I also agree with splitting the Lootas - you do give up more killpoints, though. -- But imagine popping 3 Rhinos in one turn of shooting - and dropping all those Marines in front of 6 Kans and 80 Shoota boys... funfunfun.