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Hello Tribe,
I am looking for an answer that I hope is out there.

every other week i play against roughly the same guy and he fields Nids against me. My problem is that we play on a 36" X 48" table so he's in assualt with me very quickly and spend turn 3/4 mopping up.


I field assualt termies as they cut through most things with a chaplain leading them but after the charge they snuff it and im left with the tac squads to fend of the nasties.
I also field a vindicator as the large blast temp. is feared by large units.

any tips would be great, like who to kill first, i have no idea against nids.

thanks,

List would be helpful but I think I can see the problem all ready ... roughly how many points are you spending on those assault terminators and Chaplin? 300pts, 400pts, 500pts? That is all very well at 1500pts but at 1000pts ....

... you need more men. If you know you're facing nids you can stack things against them. For example your tactical marine sergeants can take a combi flamer (10pts of the top of my head). Ok it only has one shot but then you're that close any way, it should make a mess.

You could also do with some tanks to redeploy away from the enemy, to block the enemy, to tank charge and bunch up the enemy for flamer and blast attacks.

Yep. Flamers and combi flamers. Cheap, deny cover, and destroy most nid armor saves.

As for kill first? Genestealers and hormogaunts.
Genestealers are a CC nightmare, and so are hormogaunts. These will just put out so many wounds and force you to fail some. Termagants can get boosted by a tervigon, but plaino they just have 1 attack.
Deploy all the way back. Make them come to you, and stick one small group of marines out front as a juicy target. Get your rapid fire shots and then die in cc, grouping them up for flamers and templates.

Like Tri said, it would be very helpful if we had some rough idea of your list and his.

ok,
chaplain in termie armour 130pts
assualt terminators 200pts
tactical squad - 170 (missle/flamer)
scouts - power fist, x2 snipers x2 bolters - 100
vindicator - 125
tactical squad - 170 (heavy bolter/flamer)
Landspeeder - melt and assualt cannon - 100

I have the option of a landraider, drop pod, vets squad (155pts), more scouts with bolters, a rhino, landspeeder storm, regular termies, shed loads of bikes and a couple of dev squads.

So I have options but its how to use them in a 1000 pts, small table fight.

I think a fixed gunline is the way forward as cc is suicide.

What are you trying to do with that scout squad? They are confused. Their armament is trying to do everything but doing nothing well.

I don't want to make assumptions about your hobby, so before I suggest other tweaks let me ask- Do you want an "all comers list" taking into effect that hordes in general are a consideration (since you're clearly prepared for mech/meq) or do you want to (do the wrong thing) and tailor your list to your opponent?

Take out his Synapse. I'm Playing tyranid myself. Without Synapse, Tyranids can be easely countered.

Landraider for the win. Bolter sponsons and just unload on him. Nothing can really hurt you, except MCs. Have lightning claw termies inside, and just outmaneuver him until you can dump them out on the only thing to hurt the raider. Seriously, against smaller bugs you don't even have to move.

Totally not a bot wrote:Take out his Synapse. I'm Playing tyranid myself. Without Synapse, Tyranids can be easely countered.

Doomthumbs wrote:
Landraider for the win. Bolter sponsons and just unload on him. Nothing can really hurt you, except MCs. Have lightning claw termies inside, and just outmaneuver him until you can dump them out on the only thing to hurt the raider. Seriously, against smaller bugs you don't even have to move.

Agreed on both of these points. I play 'Nids primarily as well and the Land Raider is my *worst* enemy.

Something else you might consider is a librarian. Gate can quickly negate a heavy hitting CC unit, because chances are good that they spent a lot of time getting to one place, and then all of a sudden you're somewhere else!

When I first started the unit I had the most trouble against was TH/SS terminators with a termie librarian...in a Land Raider. I'd rush it with my stealers or hormas (best options I had with a starting collection), they'd gate away, then I'd get shot down before I could find cover again. It was an expensive combo, but it could easily neutralize a large part of my starting force.

Sternguard with combiflamersx10 it may cost 300 Pts but it works well you shoot them with the long ranged ammo then flame them when some stealers or gaunts come close
Or you could take a redeemer/crusader with LC assault termies and Libby to cast gate
Personally I prefer the sternguard but that's my opinion

suicidal space marine wrote:Sternguard with combiflamersx10 it may cost 300 Pts but it works well you shoot them with the long ranged ammo then flame them when some stealers or gaunts come close
Or you could take a redeemer/crusader with LC assault termies and Libby to cast gate
Personally I prefer the sternguard but that's my opinion

Yep. Sterngaurds FTW. Try using many marines and a few vehicles. Think of what each squad is suppost to do and suit them for that purpouse. Id sugest landspeeders with missile launchers aswell. When the synapse creachures are dead, you can force his nids with feed to chase your speeders, while you shoot them to pieces

ooh speeders with Cyclone launcher and heavy bolter never thought of that before

I'd say you need more tac squads. Thats where you're going wrong.

Doomthumbs wrote:
Landraider for the win. Bolter sponsons and just unload on him. Nothing can really hurt you, except MCs. Have lightning claw termies inside, and just outmaneuver him until you can dump them out on the only thing to hurt the raider. Seriously, against smaller bugs you don't even have to move.

Now, I don't play marines, but a landraider with lightning claw termies inside is 550 points, and maybe more. That's more than half his list, and he doesn't even have his minimum troop and HQ department filled! Even with two 170-point tac squads he as only 110 points for an HQ. And if the landraider is the only vehicle, if he is bringing hive guard, then he will just glance your landraider the whole game, and you won't have the points to give it extra armour to keep it mobile. Sorry, I just feel like a 550pt unit is not what you should be taking at 1000 pts.

loota boy wrote:
Now, I don't play marines, but a landraider with lightning claw termies inside is 550 points, and maybe more. That's more than half his list, and he doesn't even have his minimum troop and HQ department filled! Even with two 170-point tac squads he as only 110 points for an HQ. And if the landraider is the only vehicle, if he is bringing hive guard, then he will just glance your landraider the whole game, and you won't have the points to give it extra armour to keep it mobile. Sorry, I just feel like a 550pt unit is not what you should be taking at 1000 pts.

Lol, you very obviously do not play marines. You're also using incorrect and misleading math.
Landraider = 240 points. Assault Terminators = 200. 240+ 200 = 440, not 550.
So, given the other numbers for the equation you offered would be: 440 + 170+ 170 + 110 = 890 points.
Not only could he afford Extra Armor, he could afford it 7 times over, making it an ork vehicle, Loota Boy

There is also the fact that minimal tac squads are 90 points, not 170. So really, he could afford some DECKED OUT tac squads for 170. Flamers, etc.
So.... you're wrong. Landraider is still his best bet because he doesnt even have to move it for 9/10 nid lists. Hive guard arent even a problem. 6 shots, average 2 misses leaves you with 4 chances to roll a 6. To glance. Its horrible odds. Trust me, I play nids. Nid player needs to use a trygon or other MC, which will get absolutely clowned by 5 assault termies.

27 models? you'll lose every time ... So what if the terminators are super killy if they're the only unit left on the table then the enemy hit them with every thing

Save the terminators and the land raiders till you're play at least 1500pts games if not 2k games

The "so what" is that they are pretty much guaranteed to put down any tyranid MC. If this is a tervigon, kiss those gants you just spawned goodbye.

If its anything else in a 1000 point list, there goes the synapse anyway, as well as anything else that can kill the landraider, which is now taking out about 20 small bugs a turn, just sitting still and laughing. If its ALSO the closest model? All the hormogaunts and stuff crowds around it while the flamer TAC squads unload on them as well. A landraider vs Tyranids in a 1000 point game is just gross.

Tac squads with flamers are also just unfair at that point value.

It would almost be worth it to just have TWO landraiders, and watch the Nid player get Loled to death.

for flips sake just use sternguard with combi flamers, auto,las preds and tac squads with PF, flamers and MLs

why bother with assault termies in a land raider with extra armour its 465 points the tac squads raise that to 855 points so 145 points for a Hq thats a great idea all the tyranids have to do is take a MC or two a tervigon and they've basically won

Doomthumbs wrote:

loota boy wrote:
Now, I don't play marines, but a landraider with lightning claw termies inside is 550 points, and maybe more. That's more than half his list, and he doesn't even have his minimum troop and HQ department filled! Even with two 170-point tac squads he as only 110 points for an HQ. And if the landraider is the only vehicle, if he is bringing hive guard, then he will just glance your landraider the whole game, and you won't have the points to give it extra armour to keep it mobile. Sorry, I just feel like a 550pt unit is not what you should be taking at 1000 pts.

Lol, you very obviously do not play marines. You're also using incorrect and misleading math.
Landraider = 240 points. Assault Terminators = 200. 240+ 200 = 440, not 550.
So, given the other numbers for the equation you offered would be: 440 + 170+ 170 + 110 = 890 points.
Not only could he afford Extra Armor, he could afford it 7 times over, making it an ork vehicle, Loota Boy

There is also the fact that minimal tac squads are 90 points, not 170. So really, he could afford some DECKED OUT tac squads for 170. Flamers, etc.
So.... you're wrong. Landraider is still his best bet because he doesnt even have to move it for 9/10 nid lists. Hive guard arent even a problem. 6 shots, average 2 misses leaves you with 4 chances to roll a 6. To glance. Its horrible odds. Trust me, I play nids. Nid player needs to use a trygon or other MC, which will get absolutely clowned by 5 assault termies.

Sorry, got confused real quick there on points. I still don't think that it's a good idea to throw half of your army into one squad. Terminators in landraiders don't really belong in 1000pt lists. It's just too many eggs in one basket. And I never said 170pts was a minimal marines squad. It was just enough points to make a decent one, like as you said earlier, a tooled out ten-man squad, or a five-man squad in a lazorback. It just seems like a bad idea to have half your list invested in that. A fast monsterous creature could munch the raider if your not careful. But thats just my opinion. I think that stern gaurd would be better.

No, they don't. Especially not versus Tyranids, because it would be almost abusively good.
Assault termies, too since the OP mentioned they are already in the list.

It would also be a bad idea, I think you will agree, for the nid player to put multiple MCs into his list, for the same reason you mentioned. It just is "Too many points".
Landraider roflstomps anything else other than MCs, and even then only really 3 of them. A s5 harpy wont do that reliably, and everything else that can hurt a landraider costs about as much as the landraider. Seriously, against even genestealers, arguably the best basic assault troop in the game, the landraider just sits there and kills 20 a turn. Doesnt even have to move.

You need more dakka!

Yep! About a Landraiders worth of dakka!

Doomthumbs wrote: Seriously, against even genestealers, arguably the best basic assault troop in the game, the landraider just sits there and kills 20 a turn. Doesnt even have to move.

.... Sorry but how does a Land raider kill 20 stealers a turn?

LR; max shots 8 (melta + storm bolter). H.Bolter kills 1.3D, LC's/melta 2.2D, S.Bolter 0.3D total = 4 dead

Crusader; shots 19 (melta + storm bolter). A.Cannon/melta 2.7D, all bolter 6.6D. Total= 9 Dead

Redeemer; A.Cannon/melta 2.7D, S.Bolter 0.3D ... tricky one is the flamers since they kill anything they're placed on but you really can't line up a perfect shot with both unless you use PotMS to hit another target ... even then spreading out limits this. Being fair of the 3-8 models you do hit they are like to die.

So at best your killing 10-12 a turn (ignoring range, cover and LOS) .... where as you can field 60+ stealers

like everyone else has said, you need more dakka, the terms are a good idea, though your chap really isn't the way to go.

this is what I would advise for going up against nids at that level of points:

HQ
Vulkan(very mean and comes with a Heavy Flamer, and Relic Blade)

Elite:
Assault Terminators(you go these guys right, but they must have Thunder hammers & Storm Shields)
Transport:
Land Raider Crusader( this thing will man handle the nids, bare none, tank shock the nids out of your way, and then deploy your terms for a charge at the scary stuff, or just group them up for the rest of your list)

Troops:
Tactical Squad(10)
Flamer
Missile Launcher

Troops:
Tactical Squad(10)
Flamer
Missile Launcher

now this list gives you 30pts extra to spend how ever you see fit, two power weapons for the SGTs in the tac squads, or a MM on the LRC, or other wargear as you see fit. in all honesty Vulkan will make his points back just in helping your units, the THs become mastercrafted, the Flamers become twin linked(and if you buy Combi Flamers for the Sgts, they do as well). he is a combat multiplier and should help you get some extra hurt on the nids.

as for tips for this list, be appropriately aggressive with the LRC, use it to boss around the hordes of nids with tank shocks, and position it so that it can unload those terms and Vulkan to go head hunting after Synapse or MCs. the LRC alone can dish out the hurt(6 twin linked boltguns and a twin linked assault cannon) it will chew holes through the bugs and there is very little they can do in return about it. the tactical squads will be able to reach out with their MLs to help blast bugs off the table, and ID Warriors and the like with Str8, and once up close they can lay the hurt on with boltguns and flamers to add to the mix.

hope this helps you on your quest to crushing some bugs.

Tri wrote:

So at best your killing 10-12 a turn (ignoring range, cover and LOS) .... where as you can field 60+ stealers

Oh, ok. So the options again, just versus a landraider are permanently stay in cover or else ten will die per turn, just averagely?
So by the end of the game(5 turns at least) the landraider has killed 840 points of Genestealers.
I guess the only thing to do against a landraider is to try and stay in cover? Forever, holding eachother close for comfort?
Because they sure won't do anything else.
And sure. I think the rest of the army should be able to handle the other 8-10 wounds.

I don't understand how saying that a landraider kills 10-12 Genestealers a turn for 5 turns( all of them, lol) is in any way refuting my point of "take a LR or regret it". So it's not 20. Its still a beast of a nidstomping machine.

i say again sternquard with combi flamers are better than assault termies

As you stated, the biggest problem is that you're playing on a 3ft by 4ft board.

At very least use a 4ft by 4ft one; that way shooting lists will at least stand a chance.

Finally; I (personally) wouldn't run a Land Raider at 1k. You can still win with a balanced list, you just need to be playing on a 4ft by 4ft board, so that the entire enemy army doesn't hit you turn 2. Genestealers + foot troops + spore mines will actually give the Tyranid player perfect board coverage on a 3ft by 4ft, totally ridiculous for any hybrid/shooting list, and really quite unfair.

@OP Ultrasmurf... What other models do you have available in your marines army besides the ones you mention in you original post. That way we can suggest stuff to swap out or run in your army instead of what you currently are running.

Doomthumbs wrote:

Tri wrote:

So at best your killing 10-12 a turn (ignoring range, cover and LOS) .... where as you can field 60+ stealers

Oh, ok. So the options again, just versus a landraider are permanently stay in cover or else ten will die per turn, just averagely?
So by the end of the game(5 turns at least) the landraider has killed 840 points of Genestealers.
I guess the only thing to do against a landraider is to try and stay in cover? Forever, holding eachother close for comfort?
Because they sure won't do anything else.
And sure. I think the rest of the army should be able to handle the other 8-10 wounds.

I don't understand how saying that a landraider kills 10-12 Genestealers a turn for 5 turns( all of them, lol) is in any way refuting my point of "take a LR or regret it". So it's not 20. Its still a beast of a nidstomping machine.

As i said ignoring cover, LOS and range.
Range
Redeem has a max range of 24" (AC, SB,MM) and 8" from the templates. Crusader has a max range of 24" on everything. The only one that could/should be in range every turn is the vanilla LR
LOS/Cover
While you can joke about it there are no end of ways of gaining cover saves and a 4+ halves the damage.

And again, OP stated the board Is 36x48 inches.
As for range, with a 12 inch deployment, the 24" you mentioned is enough to hit everything on the board from turn one, not moving.
Los and cover, just shoot at the group in front. For players new to the game on a small table, there ARE a limited amount of ways. LRC still for the win, still nothing the bids can do, especially if there are lightning claw terms on board, supported by flamers.

Why are you still arguing this?