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Seriously. Talk me out of it. Not even real Space Wolves, either, but Counts-As Space Wolves. I'm doing an RG successor chapter, sort of BTish, but a little more calm, collected individualism rather than crazy-screaming fanaticism. Space Wolves, with their amazing Grey Hunters and their more-amazing HQ units. They can look like a crusader army, they really can.

Talk me out of it. I know it's far and away the most popular power armor codex, I know everyone's jumped the bandwagon, and I know a lot - a lot, a lot, a LOT - of those using it aren't playing Space Wolves, but counts-as.

So tell me why I don't want to be one of those guys.

You dont want to be one of those guys -(deadpan)

There you go.

Personally i'd much rather you be a Furry than a sparkler.

Way too many BA players...

Well if you want a "Crusader" army, go BA...but than you'd be copying me(as you can tell from the sig)

I have a small SM army that "counts as" BA, and I went for the Knightly crusader look with them Silver, White armor and red cloth.

Join us Templars! We get a pseudo-EW option for our generic Commanders! We also get more dakka than you can shake a stick at!

AlmightyWalrus wrote:Join us Templars! We get a pseudo-EW option for our generic Commanders! We also get more dakka than you can shake a stick at!

I'd take a Frost Blade Saga of the Bear Wolf Lord over a Lightning Claw Adamantine Mantle Marshal. Which is sad, as I love the BTs. It's a shame they're a gunline these days.

Maybe because you want to actually be interesting and not have every opponent roll their eyes when they see your army?

Power armor and a lot of guys with viking hair looks pretty stupid (in my opinion). It's why I never collected Space Wolves. Tried the book a few times, it works for me for fun once in a while...but I couldn't ever take the models seriously. Oh well, some nice rules, some crappy models. I have the same issue with IG and Tau. My hatred doesn't extend only to IG, no worries folks

SickSix wrote:Maybe because you want to actually be interesting and not have every opponent roll their eyes when they see your army?

SW aren't played as much as you are making it sound...

timetowaste85 wrote:Power armor and a lot of guys with viking hair looks pretty stupid (in my opinion). It's why I never collected Space Wolves. Tried the book a few times, it works for me for fun once in a while...but I couldn't ever take the models seriously. Oh well, some nice rules, some crappy models. I have the same issue with IG and Tau. My hatred doesn't extend only to IG, no worries folks

How can you hate IG!?!?!?! I have a mutual agreement for the hatred of Tau. What do you have against IG? If there is any armor you shouldn't take seriously, its the orks...I hate them.

purplefood wrote:

SickSix wrote:Maybe because you want to actually be interesting and not have every opponent roll their eyes when they see your army?

SW aren't played as much as you are making it sound...

Actually, Black Library author Aaron Dembski-Brown, over on B&C, said he asked the GW heads 'bout popularity recently. Space Wolves blow everybody away by leaps and bounds, according to them.

timetowaste85 wrote:Power armor and a lot of guys with viking hair looks pretty stupid (in my opinion). It's why I never collected Space Wolves. Tried the book a few times, it works for me for fun once in a while...but I couldn't ever take the models seriously. Oh well, some nice rules, some crappy models. I have the same issue with IG and Tau. My hatred doesn't extend only to IG, no worries folks

Oh, I wouldn't be using the models. Or the fluff. I'd probably be using a fair amount of the Forge World Raven Guard upgrades. It's a crusading Raven Guard successor that simply uses Space Wolves rules, eschewing a lot of their more "wolfy" stuff, such as Thunderwolves, and probably even Rune Priests.

If you were doing Raven Guard would using the BA book make more sense?

It seems like your trying to go sailing by making your car into a boat instead of just using a boat.

Don't go counts as Space Wolves, or real Space Wolves. Just go plain old vanilla marines. That way you can be assured that you will always have a current Codex.

Jimsolo wrote:Don't go counts as Space Wolves, or real Space Wolves. Just go plain old vanilla marines. That way you can be assured that you will always have a current Codex.

/thread here folks

Lemme try. I'm pulling most of this from something I wrote elsewhere.
----------------------------


I’ve long had nothing but contempt for all Astartes, and the rise of Space Wolves as a dominant force among Space Marine players has been the result of many snorts of laughter amongst our inner circle. Unimaginative as your pseudo-species of Frankenstein assemblies are, Space Mongrels hold a special place of humour in my black heart. What other legion could be so easily misguided to betray the Imperium and destroy the Emperor’s most loyal servants at but a word of a treacherous son? What other legion could be counted on to not have the intelligence to question the value of their actions? Stupid and unintelligent at best, traitorous to mankind at worst, these hypocritical, superstitious, and inept servants of Chaos designed to kill their brethren are my favorite target for both verbal sparring and for killing.

And why should that ingrained lack of imagination and innovation inherently bred into each and every Space Wolf reflect differently in any other facet of their mangy existence? Every army list is as unoriginal as the last – uninspiring and unimaginative, as if each skold gothi has a virtual replica of forces to wield.

Who doesn’t expect several units of mongrels toting missile launchers to cower in the backfield and snipe at transports? Who doesn’t expect one or several hyped up gothi elevated to priest status exercising the same wyrd that they condemn their brethren for? Minimal variance to account for the inclusion of lonewolves, Thunderwolf Cavalry, or vehicle spam as the personal philosophy of each dictates…but at the end of the day, it is the difference of icing on the cake, without substantive change.

And that, my subhuman mongrel pets, is the foundation of my lack of respect for the ineptitude of your murder-make. Your skjalds recite the memories of your mongrels against inferior foes. Against enemies without the advantages bred into the petri dishes of your polluted genes. Against an intelligent foe, you crumble. When your wyrd is matched against the tenacity of any of the superior lifeforms you arrogantly dismiss as Xenos, entire complements of your warriors sleep on red snow.

It is not arrogance for my race to claim superiority over yours, to dismiss your combat abilities, and cackle in glee that you remain imagined as faithful to the Emperor, when you have been the catalyst for ten thousand years of strife. It is simple fact. Space Wolves are inferior in every way. Every time these superstitious hypocrites take the field against me, my army half-sleeps its way through victory against them.

So there it is. I expect your feeble forces to quail before mine. Bowed in terror and humbled before your worst fears manifested in physical form: Dark Eldar. Are there any out there who would be willing to champion the cowed mongrel dogs and attempt to demonstrate that the puppies are *not* all cookie-cutter replicas of inferiority, and that they *do* have some fighting ability?
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

For the TL;DR type:

*yawn* Another Space Wolf copycat. Do you really want to jump on the tired and quite overdone low-riding bandwagon of hypocrisy?

Because they're dumb.
/thread.
But seriously, everyone does space marines. They're cool, but generic and there are more things to 40k than just space marines.

Play the army you want to play.

If someone rolls their eyes because they see your army they're the one with the problem, not you.

They scratch your furniture and crap on your carpet.

So there it is. I expect your feeble forces to quail before mine. Bowed in terror and humbled before your worst fears manifested in physical form: Dark Eldar. Are there any out there who would be willing to champion the cowed mongrel dogs and attempt to demonstrate that the puppies are *not* all cookie-cutter replicas of inferiority, and that they *do* have some fighting ability?

They certainly do have fighting ability, the only times I see a Dark Eldar player walk over a Space Wolf one in a tourney is when the Dark Eldar Player gets first turn. They seem to have tremendous alpha strike capability, but then again, so do the Space Wolves. When it comes to those two armies I really do think it largely comes down to who gets first turn player quality being equal.

As for why you shouldn't play Space Wolves, when building a generic space marine chapter you can use the rules from whatever new codex comes out, but you will be looked down upon for switching. What I would think, is that choose the army book that best portrays the force you are trying to create, and then stick with it, don't codex hop.

If you want non-SW, non-codex, non-BA marines, go Templar!! Too many BA players these days anyways....

In short, at least you aren't a BA player haha.

SickSix wrote:If you were doing Raven Guard would using the BA book make more sense?

It seems like your trying to go sailing by making your car into a boat instead of just using a boat.

Not Raven Guard, no. Possibly using Corax's geneseed, though. I'm not 100% on that yet, it may well end up being Dorn's or El'Jonson's. Like 'em all.

Dashofpepper wrote:Lemme try. I'm pulling most of this from something I wrote elsewhere.

*yawn* Another Space Wolf copycat. Do you really want to jump on the tired and quite overdone low-riding bandwagon of hypocrisy?

Yes, they are rather cookie-cutter, from what I've seen. However, I likely wouldn't be using Rune Priests, definitely wouldn't be using Thunderwolf Cavalry, and certainly wouldn't be doing Razorback spam.

Kazerkinelite wrote:

timetowaste85 wrote:Power armor and a lot of guys with viking hair looks pretty stupid (in my opinion). It's why I never collected Space Wolves. Tried the book a few times, it works for me for fun once in a while...but I couldn't ever take the models seriously. Oh well, some nice rules, some crappy models. I have the same issue with IG and Tau. My hatred doesn't extend only to IG, no worries folks

How can you hate IG!?!?!?! I have a mutual agreement for the hatred of Tau. What do you have against IG? If there is any armor you shouldn't take seriously, its the orks...I hate them.

Orks are funny: I appreciate humor. However, I think IG infantry looks awful. Just my personal opinion, mind you, but I have absolutely no interest in IG models at all. The Cadians helmets are giant and goofy looking, and half the Catachans look like they're trying to pass a log-baby. Vostroyans also look like a racist attempt at Russians and do a bad job of trying to look stereotypical and foolish. I find all of the infantry to look like a joke. And stormtroopers look like somebody took a random lump of metal, gave it a gun and put it on a base. Good models? Hell no. The rules are kinda cool though-just not the models. And, I have the same issue with SW. I think they look incredibly cheesy. But the rules are fine, albeit a bit over powered and cookie-cutter. I would have no reason to talk the OP out of running a 'counts as' SW army. I almost did the same thing with a World Eaters army (post heresy). It was just going to be more work than I was willing to put into it though, because I have too many other projects going on.

Jollydevil wrote:Because they're dumb.
/thread.
There are more things to 40k than just space marines.

Not really. Considering that there are 6 different types of space marines all with their own different codex; compared to the 10 other non-space marine armies you can play.

I've got plans to do something similar, basically a knight chapter using SW rules, so I say damn the torpedos and play the army you want to play.

West wrote:Seriously. Talk me out of it. Not even real Space Wolves, either, but Counts-As Space Wolves. I'm doing an RG successor chapter, sort of BTish, but a little more calm, collected individualism rather than crazy-screaming fanaticism. Space Wolves, with their amazing Grey Hunters and their more-amazing HQ units. They can look like a crusader army, they really can.

Talk me out of it. I know it's far and away the most popular power armor codex, I know everyone's jumped the bandwagon, and I know a lot - a lot, a lot, a LOT - of those using it aren't playing Space Wolves, but counts-as.

So tell me why I don't want to be one of those guys.

Space Wolves have the problem of being the bandwagon army of choice. You will look like "that guy", we all know what that means, and in large part it may be true.

Space Wolves reputation has of late become tarnished for a couple reasons. First of course for having the most capable troops, psykers, and heavy weapons troops in the game that get an inexplicable price discount relative to contemporaries. For an army that supposedly was built around close combat, being character heavy, and being limited in numbers, you see an awful lot of SW armies with as much long range firepower as many IG armies and as many or more marines than similar books.

Second, is that their fluff and background material is...well...atrocious. They can't decide whether they want to be Space Vikings, Werewolves, Loyalist World Eaters, Mary Sues, Wolverine, Monsters, Primitive Pagans, Disciplined, Feral, Serious, Humorous, Intelligent, Bestial, Super Soldiers or an awful amalgamation of all of these often contradictory things. They are often portrayed as good-hearted well disciplined troops and in the next fluff section or book they are savage, superstituous Berzerkers that butcher everything in their path. They fire rocket artillery by smell ( ) and break discipline to rush forward and watch the rockets hit (and expose their artillery to fire in doing so). They dislike Psykers but rely extensively on them and treat their own as revered brethren while denouncing and attacking their peers for the same acts. They come off as hypocritical, arrogant, and contradictory with no clear standing on what they really are. In reading the Space Wolf Omnibus they are disciplined and relatively learned Space Vikings, in A Thousand Sons they are hypocritical savages, and in Prospero Burns they are superstitious Wolverine knock-offs with way too much awful "murder-make/threadcut/red-snow" crap, and in their own codex they come off as Invincible Mary Sue Space Berzerker Clowns.




That said, they're your models, it's your money, do what you want with it as long as you're happy doing it, the feelings of anonymous people on the internet don't really matter that much, it's really the people you play with that matter, as them.

timetowaste85 wrote:

Kazerkinelite wrote:

timetowaste85 wrote:Power armor and a lot of guys with viking hair looks pretty stupid (in my opinion). It's why I never collected Space Wolves. Tried the book a few times, it works for me for fun once in a while...but I couldn't ever take the models seriously. Oh well, some nice rules, some crappy models. I have the same issue with IG and Tau. My hatred doesn't extend only to IG, no worries folks

How can you hate IG!?!?!?! I have a mutual agreement for the hatred of Tau. What do you have against IG? If there is any armor you shouldn't take seriously, its the orks...I hate them.

Orks are funny: I appreciate humor. However, I think IG infantry looks awful. Just my personal opinion, mind you, but I have absolutely no interest in IG models at all. The Cadians helmets are giant and goofy looking, and half the Catachans look like they're trying to pass a log-baby. Vostroyans also look like a racist attempt at Russians and do a bad job of trying to look stereotypical and foolish. I find all of the infantry to look like a joke. And stormtroopers look like somebody took a random lump of metal, gave it a gun and put it on a base. Good models? Hell no. The rules are kinda cool though-just not the models. And, I have the same issue with SW. I think they look incredibly cheesy. But the rules are fine, albeit a bit over powered and cookie-cutter. I would have no reason to talk the OP out of running a 'counts as' SW army. I almost did the same thing with a World Eaters army (post heresy). It was just going to be more work than I was willing to put into it though, because I have too many other projects going on.

what army do you play? I personally like the space wolves and the ig (except for the cadians) alot, so I guess it's a matter of opinion.

timetowaste85 wrote:

Kazerkinelite wrote:

timetowaste85 wrote:Power armor and a lot of guys with viking hair looks pretty stupid (in my opinion). It's why I never collected Space Wolves. Tried the book a few times, it works for me for fun once in a while...but I couldn't ever take the models seriously. Oh well, some nice rules, some crappy models. I have the same issue with IG and Tau. My hatred doesn't extend only to IG, no worries folks

How can you hate IG!?!?!?! I have a mutual agreement for the hatred of Tau. What do you have against IG? If there is any armor you shouldn't take seriously, its the orks...I hate them.

Orks are funny: I appreciate humor. However, I think IG infantry looks awful. Just my personal opinion, mind you, but I have absolutely no interest in IG models at all. The Cadians helmets are giant and goofy looking, and half the Catachans look like they're trying to pass a log-baby. Vostroyans also look like a racist attempt at Russians and do a bad job of trying to look stereotypical and foolish. I find all of the infantry to look like a joke. And stormtroopers look like somebody took a random lump of metal, gave it a gun and put it on a base. Good models? Hell no. The rules are kinda cool though-just not the models. And, I have the same issue with SW. I think they look incredibly cheesy. But the rules are fine, albeit a bit over powered and cookie-cutter. I would have no reason to talk the OP out of running a 'counts as' SW army. I almost did the same thing with a World Eaters army (post heresy). It was just going to be more work than I was willing to put into it though, because I have too many other projects going on.

Well each to his own, I personally find IG to be my favorite army I love their fluff and how they are ordinary men in a world of "un" ordinary things. Although I somewhat agree on some IG army's. I think Mordian, Tallarn, and catachan to be very dumb looking. As for orks.....I hate them so very much and just look slowed, but I can see why some like them.

As for the topic. I have nothing against SW, I think they look awesome but as the OP said he wanted to make them into "crusaders" and I feel BA work much better for the "crusader" look thus the reason why I did them. They look much more like holy warriors if your going for a Middle Age crusade look. SW on the other hand are more like vikings.

Well, for a Crusader look, I'd go with Black Templar. That's pretty much what they're supposed to be...and the codex is still quite fun. I love it.

That and aren't BT slotted for november or somesuch?

Dashofpepper wrote:Lemme try. I'm pulling most of this from something I wrote elsewhere.
----------------------------


I’ve long had nothing but contempt for all Astartes, and the rise of Space Wolves as a dominant force among Space Marine players has been the result of many snorts of laughter amongst our inner circle. Unimaginative as your pseudo-species of Frankenstein assemblies are, Space Mongrels hold a special place of humour in my black heart. What other legion could be so easily misguided to betray the Imperium and destroy the Emperor’s most loyal servants at but a word of a treacherous son? What other legion could be counted on to not have the intelligence to question the value of their actions? Stupid and unintelligent at best, traitorous to mankind at worst, these hypocritical, superstitious, and inept servants of Chaos designed to kill their brethren are my favorite target for both verbal sparring and for killing.

And why should that ingrained lack of imagination and innovation inherently bred into each and every Space Wolf reflect differently in any other facet of their mangy existence? Every army list is as unoriginal as the last – uninspiring and unimaginative, as if each skold gothi has a virtual replica of forces to wield.

Who doesn’t expect several units of mongrels toting missile launchers to cower in the backfield and snipe at transports? Who doesn’t expect one or several hyped up gothi elevated to priest status exercising the same wyrd that they condemn their brethren for? Minimal variance to account for the inclusion of lonewolves, Thunderwolf Cavalry, or vehicle spam as the personal philosophy of each dictates…but at the end of the day, it is the difference of icing on the cake, without substantive change.

And that, my subhuman mongrel pets, is the foundation of my lack of respect for the ineptitude of your murder-make. Your skjalds recite the memories of your mongrels against inferior foes. Against enemies without the advantages bred into the petri dishes of your polluted genes. Against an intelligent foe, you crumble. When your wyrd is matched against the tenacity of any of the superior lifeforms you arrogantly dismiss as Xenos, entire complements of your warriors sleep on red snow.

It is not arrogance for my race to claim superiority over yours, to dismiss your combat abilities, and cackle in glee that you remain imagined as faithful to the Emperor, when you have been the catalyst for ten thousand years of strife. It is simple fact. Space Wolves are inferior in every way. Every time these superstitious hypocrites take the field against me, my army half-sleeps its way through victory against them.

So there it is. I expect your feeble forces to quail before mine. Bowed in terror and humbled before your worst fears manifested in physical form: Dark Eldar. Are there any out there who would be willing to champion the cowed mongrel dogs and attempt to demonstrate that the puppies are *not* all cookie-cutter replicas of inferiority, and that they *do* have some fighting ability?
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

For the TL;DR type:

*yawn* Another Space Wolf copycat. Do you really want to jump on the tired and quite overdone low-riding bandwagon of hypocrisy?

Sir your arrogance and contempt for anything not dashofpepper is truely awsome...
I truely wish I did not live about on the other side of the world from you...
Just to actually get to meet an ego that could concievably be bigger than my own...

you sir are a true inspiration!