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The good news is that I've finally been able to find some gainful employment - I teach A Level history at night school.

One of the modules/seminars I teach is The British Empire in the 19th century.

Now, a lot has been said about the role of PC (political correctness) in modern society and I'm sure folks on this site have their own views on its rights or wrongs. But that is neither here nor there.

The main focus of the module is the rights and wrongs of imperialism. There are people in my class who are Asian/African, and so obviously their ancestors were probably being exploited and needless to say, they think the Empire was not a force for good. Now, being mixed race myself with a grandfather from Trinidad, I can sympathise.

But I'm their teacher, and I believe that an integral part of education is teaching people the skills of critical thinking, presenting all sides of an argument etc and ultimately making up their own minds.

Now, I've decided to do a devil's advocate style piece and present Great Britain as a force of good: cultural legacy, influence on the USA, world trade, law and justice, building railways in India, spread of the English language, taking on the Nazis etc

I'd interested (and appreciative) in lots of views from as many different people as possible, particualry non-brits, on the positives and negatives of the British Empire. Ignoring our current decline, is Great Britain the greatest nation the world has ever seen?

Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:Ignoring our current decline, is Great Britain the greatest nation the world has ever seen?

Easily the greatest modern nation, probably not the greatest nation ever though.

Blackadder......'nuff said

One could argue that the UK is the greatest nation ever.

It was the conflict between England and France in the 14th and 15th centuries that led to the modern concept of the nation state, which became established by 1600 AD in time for Britain to emerge from obscurity to become the most powerful nation/empire in the world, invent the industrial revolution, modern representative democracy, joint stock corporations, the rule of law, the division of labour, the middle classes, and other good things. Let's not forget the contribution of the Scots, Welsh and Irish in this mutual endeavour.

Britain's imperialism while imperialist and no doubt damaging was undoubtedly less damaging and more beneficial to the victims than that of most other nations (the USA is a notable exception). The Raj did the following for India; United the nation (excepting the Hindu/Muslim division). Got rid of Suttee and Thugee. Built the railways. Educated a whole class of Indians and helped establish democracy and the rule of law.

Britain's decline from the first rank of power was occasioned by involvement in defending allies against unwarranted invasion. By the time of Britain's obvious post-imperial decline, the nation state itself was becoming an increasingly powerless and outmoded concept in the modern world.

Depends on what you mean by "great" I suppose.

I do think Rome was greater, but unlike Rome that was, Britannia still breathes. Also Rome was not known for its innovation, just its organisation.

Its about time this understanding and awareness was re-awakened, patriotism has been left to the fanatics for too long and considered 'shameful' by loony left dogmatics. This is a mistake the US has not made, they might have power far beyond us, but its mostly bloat, the consequences of being a far bigger country. Still Americans came a long way and remember what they have done and what they stand for.

Why should Britons, of all people, forget.
No successful invasions for over 900 years, while not sitting quietly on the sideline. Not a bad record.
A 'little' island, that hits hard and paves the way for most of what makes the modern world what it is.


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Got to share this one.

Song in second half, note these guys are not racist. People didnt need walk on eggshells in the 50's.

Kilkrazy wrote:One could argue that the UK is the greatest nation ever.
Let's not forget the contribution of the Scots, Welsh and Irish in this mutual endeavour.

And the Cornish...

Anyhow, the current fashion of shame around anything to do with The Empire can be countered to a varying degree by the old Life of Brian 'What have the Romans ever done for us?' argument.

Further, consideration of a couple of points here:

It would appear that the British were the most benevolent of the empire builders of their age, you just need to take a look at what Belgium did to the Congo to realise we were a lesser evil.

How gentle would, say, the Zulus have been if they had obtained the gunpowder weaponry and technology and invaded Europe?

farmersboy wrote:No, you're not. These are supposed to be the finest, highest quality nation we've ever seen; yes there will be flash and mould lines that need cleaning (you'll always get that) but to even contemplate sending them out with missing pieces, miscasts, mould slip, more bubbles than an Aero bar? It's just not good enough...

As above... I have adapted it to suit the UK...

Kilkrazy wrote:
Britain's imperialism while imperialist and no doubt damaging was undoubtedly less damaging and more beneficial to the victims than that of most other nations (the USA is a notable exception). The Raj did the following for India; United the nation (excepting the Hindu/Muslim division). Got rid of Suttee and Thugee. Built the railways. Educated a whole class of Indians and helped establish democracy and the rule of law.

I wouldn't cite India as an example of British Imperial success, especially as regards democracy, peace, or unity. That big Muslim country the Hindus wear as a hat was part of the British Raj after all.

Now, the Caribbean is a different matter. You guys got a bunch of poor island nations to adopt democratic government despite being population outliers.

Orlanth wrote:I do think Rome was greater, but unlike Rome that was, Britannia still breathes. Also Rome was not known for its innovation, just its organisation.

The Roman army was extremely innovative because of its organization structure.


Anyway, Britain is the hipster of global powers. Obscure now, but popular decades ago, and ironically appreciated.

dogma wrote:
I wouldn't cite India as an example of British Imperial success, especially as regards democracy, peace, or unity. That big Muslim country the Hindus wear as a hat was part of the British Raj after all.

India was a problem for the British crown once their interests became threatened and they had to send more soldiers there in order to protect their assets. The British handled their subjects from a distance, sometimes misinterpreting what the Empire should do with their far away demense. This in turn led to disasterous rebellions and eventually to repression. Keep in mind the area has different people and religions and cultures, so not all British policies curtailed all their Indian subjects.

I would argue however that British Imperial was a success; they gave the British a key market to which raw goods were supplied and in turn manufactured goods were sent to enrich the Crown and the Isles. The successful Indian movement to separation from the Crown came about because many of those who pushed for independance came from British educational backgrounds. Finally, the Indian state during the World War period was instrumental in helping Britain and the Allies win the war. Under those contexts, I would say that the Imperial phase of British rule in India was a success.

Now failure to help transition the Indian subcontinent into separate states was a failure.

The early Ottoman Empire was pretty cool in terms of tolerance of religion for the day and age. A muslim conqueror who didn't force the conquered people to convert or execute them for being Christian or Jewish was something out of the usual. They also allowed autonomy of the conquered peoples as long as they paid taxes and for the most part the taxes was kept the same as the previous ruling regime's tax.

Cold beer, professional wrestling, nuclear proliferation, what more needs to be said. Oh well, you Brits did give us the founding fathers of heavy metal, (Led Zeppelin, Black Sabbath, Deep Purple) so I guess that's something.

It is good to see that Exceptionalism is alive and well outside the USA.

Ahtman wrote:It is good to see that Exceptionalism is alive and well outside the USA.

It only exists because the Emperor allows it.

WarOne wrote:

Ahtman wrote:It is good to see that Exceptionalism is alive and well outside the USA.

It only exists because the Emperor allows it.

Well duh.

Oh well, you Brits did give us the founding fathers...

I'ma stop you there. You're welcome.

Should the name be changed to Greatest Britain perhaps?

Ahtman wrote:Should the name be changed to Greatest Britain perhaps?

Only if some countries change their names to Lesser Britain. Go on America, you can have it. We don't mind.


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Kilkrazy wrote:Britain's imperialism while imperialist...

That's a rather bold claim.

Want to talk about tolerant empires? The Mongol Empire during the reign of Genghis.

htj wrote:

Ahtman wrote:Should the name be changed to Greatest Britain perhaps?

Only if some countries change their names to Lesser Britain. Go on America, you can have it. We don't mind.

Bazinga.

iproxtaco wrote:Want to talk about tolerant empires? The Mongol Empire during the reign of Genghis.

Thats not correct. The Mongol EMpire just shifted all the portable assets of a country back to Mongolia. Most of the conquered countries didn't recover to anything approaching greatness until modern times.

Frazzled wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:Want to talk about tolerant empires? The Mongol Empire during the reign of Genghis.

Thats not correct. The Mongol EMpire just shifted all the portable assets of a country back to Mongolia. Most of the conquered countries didn't recover to anything approaching greatness until modern times.

That's relocation of resources. Genghis did not discriminate due to race or religion.

So, what, he looted from all races and religions equally?

Yep.

I think the "Great" is becoming a bit of a joke these days.

As for the past, I think we did our fair share of enlightening the rest of the world, though it does amuse me that having spread christianity to the far corners of the globe, most of us can't be bothered with religion anymore.

The best thing we did was to leave English everywhere so that it is now one of the three principal languages on the planet. It means that so long as I don't visit Latin America or China, I don't have to utter a single foreign syllable

Anyway, I really wish we would retire now and become more of a neutral country like Switzerland. Our debt problem could be solved at stroke by getting rid of our floating missile platforms that don't actually do anything.

Flashman wrote:I think the "Great" is becoming a bit of a joke these days.

Suggestion: Change name to 'Oh Great, Britain.' To be pronounced sarcastically.

Flashman wrote:Anyway, I really wish we would retire now and become more of a neutral country like Switzerland. Our debt problem could be solved at stroke by getting rid of our floating missile platforms that don't actually do anything.

I likes the sounds of this. Need to get our hands on some nice Nazi gold equivalent. African conflict diamonds, perhaps?

Flashman wrote:As for the past, I think we did our fair share of enlightening the rest of the world, though it does amuse me that having spread christianity to the far corners of the globe, most of us can't be bothered with religion anymore.

The Spanish and the French did a lot more than Britain. After all, Anglicanism numbers in 70+ million. Catholicism tops the chart at 1+ billion.

I'd definitely given the UK credit for the origins of what is now the modern concept of Force Projection the US so happily employs today though. Thx gents .

Frazzled wrote:
Thats not correct. The Mongol EMpire just shifted all the portable assets of a country back to Mongolia. Most of the conquered countries didn't recover to anything approaching greatness until modern times.

I see someone never heard of the Yuans, Timurids, or Mughals.

The Mongol Empire didn't even move that many assets. There is a reason the Khanates fractured the political structure of the body, and it is much the same as the reason behind the warring Alexandrian states.

htj wrote:So, what, he looted from all races and religions equally?

Yes. The ones they didn't wipe off the face of the earth of course.

Frazzled wrote:

htj wrote:So, what, he looted from all races and religions equally?

Yes. The ones they didn't wipe off the face of the earth of course.

The Chinese and all their various ethnicities are still around. The Hindus are still around. The Muslims are still around. So are the Koreans, and the Turks, and the Persians. Hell, even Georgia still exists.

It honestly looks like the Mongols didn't wipe anyone out.