Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

htj wrote:You're quite right, which is why I retracted it in my following post. You could argue that a country that alters it's political system is no longer the same country, though, merely one that shares the name of it's predecessor. It depends on what you consider makes a country a country. But that's semantics, not worth getting into.

Germany didn't just alter it's political system. Before the unification in 1871 there was no such thing as Germany, it was a bunch of smaller states that were part of the Holy Roman Empire. If just paving people exist on a plot of land is enough to consider it a country then African are far more mature as a group than the rest of us, with the Chinese and Native Americans falling behind them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

dajobe wrote:its impossible to say which is the greatest.

That is pretty much exactly what is going on here though, and a surprising amount of "White Mans Burden" sort of thinking is being used to justify the conclusion.

htj wrote:

Ahtman wrote:

htj wrote:

halonachos wrote:The United States has always been a representative government.

So has Britain since 1651.

Perhaps you misunderstand what the word always means.

Just over 200 years? Alright, poorly worded on my part, admittedly. The point I was trying to make was that the US is a relatively young country. Rome lasted for well over the length of time the US has existed with no governmental restructures for several periods, so it's not an entirely fair comparison.

We had a Civil War and still kept the same government, hell even the rebels still had the same government.

1: we all misunderstood the question at first, and were talking about countries.

2: once it was pointed out we were talking about nations we switched and i thought it would be impossible to decide which NATION is best. A nation is defined as: A large aggregate of people united by common descent, history, culture, or language, inhabiting a particular country or territory.

how can you compare one group of people with another, thier culture with eachother and saying its better. That is like saying I like pea soup, you like chicken noodle, mine is better than yours. you would reply, in what way are you grading it, it is impossible to say which is best, just that which you prefer.

your logic has greatly confused me...please elaborate on how saying that no single one is better is white mans burden.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
this comment is directed at ahtman


Automatically Appended Next Post:
halonnachos: we are now talking about nations,not countries, there is a difference, if you want to discuss countries put up a forum about it.

The comments about Great Britain being the greatest country because it brought western values to the world is pretty much exactly that kind of reasoning.

"Sure we oppressed and killed a lot of people and enforced our culture on them, but we civilized them using our own metric of civilization, the bunch of savages".

The US is the greatest nation in the history of known history, and you know why? We alone have accomplished what every other nation in the history of forever could only dream of doing: we put a man, a human being, on the moon, and planted our flag there. The Mongols, Romans, Brits, Chinese, etc. etc. etc. never even came close.

dajobe wrote:1: we all misunderstood the question at first, and were talking about countries.

2: once it was pointed out we were talking about nations we switched and i thought it would be impossible to decide which NATION is best. A nation is defined as: A large aggregate of people united by common descent, history, culture, or language, inhabiting a particular country or territory.

how can you compare one group of people with another, thier culture with eachother and saying its better. That is like saying I like pea soup, you like chicken noodle, mine is better than yours. you would reply, in what way are you grading it, it is impossible to say which is best, just that which you prefer.

your logic has greatly confused me...please elaborate on how saying that no single one is better is white mans burden.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
this comment is directed at ahtman


Automatically Appended Next Post:
halonnachos: we are now talking about nations,not countries, there is a difference, if you want to discuss countries put up a forum about it.

I do believe that when you define Nation as a large group of people inhabiting a particular country you can call the United States a nation seeing as though we are a large aggregate of people inhabiting the same country...

that is true, that statement is white mans burden. but it can also be argued that medicine, literature and many of the other things brought to the foreign parts of the world greatly increased the "quality" of life. Increasing literacy, life expectancy, living conditions. Do you refute that point?

I take it that you are one of the people that thinks that Americans never should have expanded westward and taken on new territory because it belonged to Native Americans?

There is a line between bringing culture and devastating a foreign culture.

Teaching the natives to read is one thing and giving them smallpox ridden blankets is another thing.

Kilkrazy wrote:The thread isn't about countries, it's about nations, which is a different concept.

It is?

is it our fault that we carried smallpox? because people of that time definitely had an intricate understanding of how diseases transferred and immunity...your right.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:The thread isn't about countries, it's about nations, which is a different concept.

It is?

a nation is a group of people defined by a culture and similiar way of life, a country is defined by borders

Says who?

i gotta go home for the weekend, wont be on much this weekend(4th of july) look forward to continuing discussion later though!

*sips tea and adjusts monocle*

Quite...

Fine innings sir, more tea?

Oh indeed - always time for more tea. And crust-less cucumber sandwiches in small triangles if there are some available.

dajobe wrote:is it our fault that we carried smallpox? because people of that time definitely had an intricate understanding of how diseases transferred and immunity...your right.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:The thread isn't about countries, it's about nations, which is a different concept.

It is?

a nation is a group of people defined by a culture and similiar way of life, a country is defined by borders

Its not our fault that we carried smallpox, but we did know that the natives weren't as immune to it as we were. Hell, biological warfare has been used for quite some time and even though we didn't know why they weren't as immune as we were we knew that they weren't. As an example you can look at Cortez and how he dealt with the Aztec and even Ghenghis Khan's use of decaying corpses as weapons.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:The thread isn't about countries, it's about nations, which is a different concept.

It is?

Yes.

Guys, why the pissing contest over who's the best?
I recommend we all settle down for a good old read of Guns, Germs and Steel by Jared Diamond and then reconvene for a session of friendly drinks, where I can make fun of people who drink lager while knowing that stout is going to hurt me more the next day.

The United States is unquestionably a nation. It probably has a stronger national identity than most other nations including the UK -- The American Dream.

The reason it isn't the greatest nation is because it hasn't been around long enough and hasn't had the opportunity to so as much stuff as the UK. If the era of nations persists, then perhaps the USA will be able to overtake the UK in terms of achievements, however we are considering the current situation.

China has been around for a long time, but for much of that time it hasn't been a nation, and its achievements more or less ran out in the middle ages.

Obviously I am classing achievements as progress in art, literature, technology, and social and political life as "good" things.

Kilkrazy wrote:The United States is unquestionably a nation. It probably has a stronger national identity than most other nations including the UK -- The American Dream.

The reason it isn't the greatest nation is because it hasn't been around long enough and hasn't had the opportunity to so as much stuff as the UK. If the era of nations persists, then perhaps the USA will be able to overtake the UK in terms of achievements, however we are considering the current situation.

We're not that great.

Especially when 2/3's of the government shuts itself down for budget reasons

And have you ever tried to find good fish 'n chips in America? 'Cause I sure as sugar haven't found any.

ON TOPIC: Britain is likely a high candidate for "Nation of The Year", and I can see many years of good things to come.
Greatest nation the world has ever seen just sounds a tad vain.

US art and literature was never as 'good' as their European counterpart, but then again the US lacked a good number of philosophers and the ability to send things to Europe via road or rail.

The US for its little time of existance has done really great things; the US kicked Europe out of the western hemisphere, created two countries in Africa, was key in two World Wars, developed nuclear weaponry and energy, landed on the moon, created the world's two first metal sailing vessels, developed the base of the internet, founded the United Nations, helped rebuild Europe, and even though it hasn't militarily taken over the world American influence is just about anywhere you go.

halonachos wrote:We had a Civil War and still kept the same government, hell even the rebels still had the same government.

The government changed (but the institutions themselves remained the same).

WarOne wrote:

halonachos wrote:We had a Civil War and still kept the same government, hell even the rebels still had the same government.

The government changed (but the institutions themselves remained the same).

It was a Constitutional Republic before and it was a Constitutional Republic afterwards.

Kasrkai wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:The United States is unquestionably a nation. It probably has a stronger national identity than most other nations including the UK -- The American Dream.

The reason it isn't the greatest nation is because it hasn't been around long enough and hasn't had the opportunity to so as much stuff as the UK. If the era of nations persists, then perhaps the USA will be able to overtake the UK in terms of achievements, however we are considering the current situation.

We're not that great.

Especially when 2/3's of the government shuts itself down for budget reasons

And have you ever tried to find good fish 'n chips in America? 'Cause I sure as sugar haven't found any.

ON TOPIC: Britain is likely a high candidate for "Nation of The Year", and I can see many years of good things to come.
Greatest nation the world has ever seen just sounds a tad vain.

True, though if you want to think about such things there must be one and the UK is a good candidate.

This must be where the USA gets its overinflated sense of self worth from. We often confuse having a history with being great as well.

Ahtman wrote:This must be where the USA gets its overinflated sense of self worth from. We often confuse having a history with being great as well.

You need castles to have a history

Flashman wrote:

Ahtman wrote:This must be where the USA gets its overinflated sense of self worth from. We often confuse having a history with being great as well.

You need castles to have a history

SilverMK2 wrote:*sips tea and adjusts monocle*

Quite...

A 'ole 'lotta stuffs goin' on in 'ere, that's for true

dajobe wrote:US has stuck with same balance of power between Executive, Judicial and Representative branch since its inception in 1787(when constitution was signed). Where as English parliament has had a great shift in power from the king, to the house of lords and now to the house of commons.

No we haven't. The Executive branch has grown much more powerful over the past 150 years (Primarily this can be traced back to the Civil War) while the legislative branch has grown somewhat weaker (14th Amendment, Progressive Era reforms to the Senate, and the increasing massiveness of the Federal bureaucracy under the Executive Branch). Some could argue the Judicial Branch grew radically more powerful as a result of the 14th Amendment and it's Constitutional implications on the application of Federal Law and State Law.

created the world's two first metal sailing vessels

French and Brits had them before us. We were just the first to use them in warfare. The Civil War in general was a mile stone for warfare. It began the transition from Napoleonic into the current Modern War. There's a reason even people in Europe often know a lot about it.

Kilkrazy wrote:The United States is unquestionably a nation. It probably has a stronger national identity than most other nations including the UK -- The American Dream.

The reason it isn't the greatest nation is because it hasn't been around long enough and hasn't had the opportunity to so as much stuff as the UK. If the era of nations persists, then perhaps the USA will be able to overtake the UK in terms of achievements, however we are considering the current situation.

China has been around for a long time, but for much of that time it hasn't been a nation, and its achievements more or less ran out in the middle ages.

Obviously I am classing achievements as progress in art, literature, technology, and social and political life as "good" things.

I'm sorry? What? The US was the first nation to harness and weaponize the power of the atom. The US was the first (and only) nation to put a man on the moon. The US was the first (and only) nation to send a probe out beyond the solar system. The US has a larger Navy than the next ten navies combined (and lets not even mention the rest of the US military, the Marine Corps alone is larger and more capable than most nations entire military forces), an achievement that Great Britain/the UK, at the height of its power, could only dream of. Americans are responsible for manned powered flight, the telephone, usable electricity, radios, automobiles, microwave ovens, nuclear energy, satellite communications, gps, and a host of other technologies that are necessary for luxurious modern day lifestyles. US music, television, and films have dominated the world scene for the last half century. Hollywood produces films that have global appeal and in many nations outstrips the popularity of their own domestic movie industry. American culture and history has influenced and inspired foreign writers and filmmakers, resulting in works of literature such as Winnetou, massively beloved by German and other European populations, as well as Spaghetti Western films that have defined that genre. American culture has permeated the world scene, I can go to almost any nation in the world and find at least one native of that country wearing a Yankees cap or some other article clothing relating to American sports, culture, or entertainment. In some parts of the world, especially in the western hemisphere, this is the norm, rather than the exception. The US still has 'colonies' all around the globe: Puerto Rico, the US Virgin Islands, Guam, Northern Marianas Islands, American Samoa, Wake Island, Midway, etc. not to mention a global network of military bases, the sun truly never does set on the United States. At one time or another, the US controlled or occupied the Panama Canal, the Phillippines, Cuba, Nicaragua, Veracruz, the Dominican Republic, Haiti, Marshall Islands, Micronesia, Palau, Greenland, Iceland, Austria, Germany, Japan, South Korea, Iraq, and Afghanistan. I can find a McDonalds in almost any corner of our spherical globe. What exactly has Great Britain done in terms of achievement that could possibly hope to outclass the US? You had a global empire, this is true and a powerful navy (that in relative terms was never nearly as powerful as the current US Navy), and during the British Invasion period you threw some pretty great bands our way, but chances are you'll hear people listening to just as many (if not more) American bands being listened to on the world scene as you would British.