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Hey all

I'm starting guard soon and was wondering where to start, I've read a lot of other threads and have come up with an army that seems fun but effective at the same time, so far i have this:
HQ
Lord Commisar - 105
Power Fist
Camo Cloak
Carapace Armour

ELITE
5xOgryn - 265
w/h Chimera - Multi Laser, H.Flamer

TROOP
PCS - 125
4x Meltaguns
w/h Chimera - Multi Laser, H.Flamer

10x Inf. Squad - 70
Power Weapon
Melta Gun

10x Inf. Squad - 115
Power Weapon
Commissar
Power Weapon
Melta Gun

PCS - 125
4x Meltaguns
w/h Chimera - Multi Laser, H.Flamer

10x Inf. Squad - 70
Power Weapon
Melta Gun

10x Inf. Squad - 115
Power Weapon
Commissar
Power Weapon
Melta Gun

990

Any suggestions let me know
Thanks

What is your goal, do you want a competitive list, fluff list, or friendly games list?

Is there a difference? most efficient for the win.

Say no to the ogryns....every time lol

I like it. I usually don't use ogyrns until 2000 or 2500 but I have tried them at lower point levels. They are a little difficult to use properly, however. Just a warning...
That being said I do think they can be quite competitive even at this point level.

On to your current list. The main weakness is the total absence of long range firepower. Two hydras will fill this hole nicely. Where to get the points?

Your commissar is an excellent pair the the Ogyrns, however, at 105 he is simply too much at 1000 points. If you drop the armour and the camo he comes down to 85 which is much more reasonsable. 20 points saved.

The ogyrns fill the anti infantry in your list well. Again though, at 210 points this is eating up alot of your points and together with the commissar, which I assume will be riding with these guys, is a huge point sink in an av12 metal box. Drop these down to a min size squad of 3. They will still scare people and will still fill the role nicely. 80 points saved.

Your blobs are on cleanup duty. Take away those melta guns. Yes they are nice to have, however, you also have two melta squads in chimeras. Leave the heavy tank duty to them. Andd don't be afraid to lose them. 40 points saved.

Together with the 10 points you have leftover is 150 points. Add in two hydras.

i totally agree with Barksdale. if you want a hybrid list this is a great starting point.

Skinkslayer wrote:Is there a difference? most efficient for the win.

It does make a difference, IG can build an extremely powerful list that steamrolls everything. But the trade off is its boring to play, very boring. So much so that most of the competitive IG players I know wont even field them unless there is $$$ involved.

The lord commissar nor the ogryns are very good choices in the IG codex. They are poor when shooting and despite being some of the best CC units in the codex they still are very lacking at CC. as well they are horribly overpriced.

I think you could make your troops work, 20 man power blobs should be sufficient at 1000. I’m not a particular fan of power blobs, but some are and they are effective.

PCS looks solid, with out vets your stuck dropping your melta in to BS 3

For an IG list you have a heavy lack of fire power. You are leaving out the 2 strongest sections of the codex, you really need to fill in some fast attack. Hounds and vendettas are both very strong units vendettas on top. Manticores, and as previously stated hydras are both very solid. And will show far batter return then ogryns.

As for an Hq I would drop out the Commisar and fit in a CCS maxed out melta or plasma, it costs more but for low point games (I.E. few AV 14 opponents) plasma is better, just don’t put it on BS 3 modals.

Leave the Elites empty until you hit at least 1500, unless you are giving them a special job, I would fill this in last.

I disagree with the above posts, on parts at least.

I have had Ogryns wipe out Terminator assault squads in CC. The biggest thing Ogryns lack are power weapons/fists, and this is where a Lord Commissar fills in very well. On the other hand I have had my Ogryns wiped out by a single Vindicator shot, Lord Commissar and all. Thus how the fates work. Used right with some luck, they can be nasty. But I would take them out of the Chimera, as it allows them to assault right away instead of messing around inside the Chimera, which is a pain to assault from. Use the Ogryns as your armor for your Lord and drop the Camo Cloak. There is your 75pts for your Hydra if you really want one.

The problem of having a single Heavy support in the back is that you now have to defend it. Your not paying for a Hydra, your paying for a hydra + troops. Maybe a lone Hydra will not be worth the bother to attack it, but if a guy has DSing and Outflanking units, why not. Me... I would rather have a AC HWS camping back in cover on your home objective for 75pts vs the Hydra, thus freeing up your blobs and PCSs from hanging back. The HWS is a scoring unit with 3 ACs and will not be taken out by a single Lascannon shot. Your also getting the same fire power as 2 TLed ACs by adding the 3rd AC, both averaging 3 hits.

As for the PCS, the Meltas are rough on BS 3 guys. You have plenty of meltas in the blobs, so I actually suggest 3 Flamers and a Heavy Flamer (your actually saving 5pts doing this). Or just go 4 Flamers saving 20pts per PCS. Use these scoring units to take out Infantry in cover and to take or contest objectives. For giggles you can toss out 'Move!x3' on your blobs or Ogryns to help get them stuck in faster.

If you want, drop the last two Chimeras in the PCSs (+110pts) along with the flamer conversion (+10pts), get another Ogryn and a second AC HWS (115pts total), giving you 5pts extra for a Meltabomb on your Lord.

You now have the option of having two Hydras or two AC HWSs and a extra Ogryn for those 3 Chimeras. If you have any extra points, I would give your Sergeants in your blobs meltabombs to give them a chance against a Walker assault. Your best defense is shooting them first, of course, but I have been scarred by that damn cheater claw BA Furiuso and it's Fleet. To get those Meltabombs, you probably have to do the 4x Flamers, so after getting the 20pts spent on Meltabombs for the PISs, you should have 10pts left, so I would say give the PCSs Meltabombs to finish off for a even 1000pts.

Hope this gives you some food for thought. Good luck!

So, your advocating a 300+ point unit that has to walk? At 1000 points? Is this how you ran them when that vindi toasted all of them?

To save both money and points, drop the Ogryns. They're a unit that either works brilliantly or fails miserably (ie. too dependent upon the whims of the dice gods.). You want an efficient list? IG are the masters of efficient lists. This is what I recommend:

HQ
Company Command + 4 Plasma + Plasma Pistol + Chimera = 175

Troops
Platoon Command Squad + 4 Melta + Chimera w/Hull Flamer = 125
Inf Squad + AC + GL = 65
Inf Squad + AC + GL = 65

Platoon Command Squad + 4 Melta + Chimera w/Hull Flamer = 125
Inf Squad + AC + GL = 65
Inf Squad + AC + GL = 65

Veteran Squad + 3 Melta + Chimera = 155
Veteran Squad + 3 Melta + Chimera = 155

Total = 995

So that's 4 Autocannons, 4 Grenade Launchers, 14 Melta Guns and 4 Plasma guns (+1 Plasma pistol), along with 4 Scoring Chimeras and one Command. Pretty efficient IG list, but is it fun? Maybe not as much as the one with Ogryns, lol.

Another option is to drop the Veterans and add in two Vendettas instead. The number of scoring vehicles doesn't change, and you swap the six BS4 Meltas for six twin-linked BS3 Lascannons, although admittedly they are a lot more exposed.

Barksdale wrote:So, your advocating a 300+ point unit that has to walk? At 1000 points? Is this how you ran them when that vindi toasted all of them?

Yes and yes. Your point? You ever use Ogryn? You ever assault from a Chimera? I still won the match, even with the loss of the Ogryn because the player feared them the most. It allowed other units to destroy said Vindi (Rough Riders actually). Ogryn are fantastic bullet catchers with that T5 and W3 and with a Lord propping up that Leadership to 10 with Stubborn so they have to nearly kill every last one to finish the unit. At 1000pts, the more he can field, the better.

Besides, he is runing two power blobs with /three/ Chimeras. Everyone runs heavy anti-Mech, so to justify the anti-mech weapons they need to face Mech. Those melta guns, lascannons, and multi-meltas will end up killing a single guardsman or just put a single wound on a Ogryn. Blowing up the transport that they are riding in just needlessly puts wounds on them, much less probably destroying the PCSs outright. No mech makes your enemy's anti-mech weapons practically worthless. He also needs the 165pts to get either Hydras or HWSs to give him some proper long range support.

BlkTom wrote:

Everyone runs heavy anti-Mech, so to justify the anti-mech weapons they need to face Mech. Those melta guns, lascannons, and multi-meltas will end up killing a single guardsman or just put a single wound on a Ogryn. Blowing up the transport that they are riding in just needlessly puts wounds on them, much less probably destroying the PCSs outright. No mech makes your enemy's anti-mech weapons practically worthless. He also needs the 165pts to get either Hydras or HWSs to give him some proper long range support.

If you get Hydras and/or HWTs, then all the anti-vehicle weapons of your opponent will have a proper target. Hydra is a vehicle, no? . And even a single wound from autocannon/lascannon/scatter laser/missile launcher will instakill one of the team in your HWT squad and the rest have then high chance to fail morale and be lost. Only by using a full power blob can you deny your opponent a proper use of his anti vehicle weapons...
Very often you can also see a few blast/large blast/template weapons or powers in opponents army. Those will own your power blob totally. Recently I played a game with power blob and HWTs against space marines (ultras) and lost before I did any damage at all. Long range weapons destroyed my HWTs before they can even hit an enemy and template weapons killed all soldiers in my power blob in one turn...

I just think that if he wants to use chimeras, he should use them. They are very good units with nice firepower and they give you much needed mobility and toughness to survive templates..(at least until someone craks them open )

So you want to win lots of games, huh? Imperial Guard is a good choice for you.

Unfortunately the list you've put up isn't very good; in fact, it's absolutely terrible.
Ogryns and a Lord Commisar with a Powerfist...because Imperial Guard wants to be in CC? The answer is no, they don't, no matter how much people want them to be or how many 'unbeatable' lists people post.
Infantry squads on foot with Power Weapons instead of Heavy Weapons? You do realise that this game generally requires long range shooting, right?
Three Chimeras, wow! That makes my target priority so difficult! It's lucky that this games requires you to show your opponents your list beforehand, otherwise I'd be worried I didn't know where your 'scary' close combat unit is.
This is a fun list only.

Now if you're looking for a competitive list, here's something that will help.
Company Command Squad, 2 Meltaguns, Chimera (Multilaser, Heavy Flamer) - 125
Platoon Command Squad, 2 Grenade Launchers, Chimera (Multilaser, Heavy Flamer) - 95
Infantry Squad, Meltagun, Autocannon, Chimera (Multilaser, Heavy Flamer) - 125
Infantry Squad, Meltagun, Autocannon, Chimera (Multilaser, Heavy Flamer) - 125
Infantry Squad, Meltagun, Autocannon, Chimera (Multilaser, Heavy Flamer) - 125
Veteran Squad, 2 Meltaguns, Chimera (Multilaser, Heavy Flamer) - 145
Vendetta - 130
Vendetta - 130
Total: 1000

That's about the meanest IG list I can make at this points level.
That's 6 Chimeras a two Vendettas, a nice amount of long range firepower for mech and plenty of anti-horde.
Notice how the Melta is spread around the squads? This is so one lucky shot doesn't take down your 4 x Melta squad; redundancy is a good thing to have.
I cannot think of many 1000 point lists that can handle this much Av12. Dark Eldar maybe, Space Wolves maybe, but they both hate massed S6 shots.

Anyway, GL HF playing IG.

The list above is a little confused. You speak of a lucky shot taking down your 4 x melta squad? Now you leave your melta rolls more to chance. Thats not good. In any case the list looks quite decent, though not terribly reliable apart from the vendettas, but I suppose the numbers evens things out.

Why is it confused? I've taken as many vehicles with as many bodies and long range anti-tank shots as possible.

Not very reliable? 6 Lascannon, 6 Autocannon, 7 Meltagun and 18 Mutlilaser shots for mech. 6 Heavy Flamers and a bunch of Lasgun shots for hordes. I hear vehicles are quite difficult to kill in 5th edition; well, this list has 8 vehicles in total. This is as reliable as it gets mate.

I actually have to agree with Barksdale on that. You have heavy weapons and meltas in Chimeras with BS 3? Empty Vendettas? Wasted and empty special weapon slots? Your banking everything on the Chimeras and not the troops.

While I agree with your accessment on the 3 Chimera list and target priority, same thing with your list. Your long Range AT is your Vendettas, two AV 12 targets. *shrugs* Your vastly overestimating how difficult vehicles are to destroy, specially IG vehicles.

As for Lothar, I agree Hydras are indeed vehicles, which was why I was pushing for HWTs, in cover, since they are scoring and sitting on your rear objective.

Every limitation you listed doesn't matter what is back there. If he keeps half of his list sitting back to defend his rear, he limits what he attacks with. Only way to win objective games is to table the enemy or /move/ forward and take objectives.

There is no perfect answer, no perfect list. You make a list based on the tactics and limitations your willing to accept and use.

BlkTom wrote:I actually have to agree with Barksdale on that. You have heavy weapons and meltas in Chimeras with BS 3? Empty Vendettas? Wasted and empty special weapon slots? Your banking everything on the Chimeras and not the troops.

While I agree with your accessment on the 3 Chimera list and target priority, same thing with your list. Your long Range AT is your Vendettas, two AV 12 targets. *shrugs* Your vastly overestimating how difficult vehicles are to destroy, specially IG vehicles.

As for Lothar, I agree Hydras are indeed vehicles, which was why I was pushing for HWTs, in cover, since they are scoring and sitting on your rear objective.

Every limitation you listed doesn't matter what is back there. If he keeps half of his list sitting back to defend his rear, he limits what he attacks with. Only way to win objective games is to table the enemy or /move/ forward and take objectives.

There is no perfect answer, no perfect list. You make a list based on the tactics and limitations your willing to accept and use.

Vendettas find more use as gunships rather than transports; if you want a fast skimmer to capture objectives, get a Valkyrie with its s4 rocket pods. If you use your Vendetta as a transport, you're missing out valuable lascannon shots, and if you use it to sit back and support, you're wasting the squad embarked in it. Trust me, I've used Vendettas as transports and they are pointless.

Regarding the BS3 heavy weapons, the rule here is quantity, not quality. Number of shots, coupled with an AV12 transport (which, thanks to the five fire points is finding more and more use as a bunker than an actual transport) provides a very reliable fire base from which to advance. Sure, there are wasted special weapon slots; but if the lack of special weapons allows you to load up on more Chimeras/Vendettas, then it's a sacrifice anyone should be willing to make.

I'm not looking for crazy competitiveness from this list, i really wanna try the ogryn out as they seem fun however.
I may refine this list for something more competitive later on and i thank you for the suggestions for making it more so.
My idea was to run the blobs up behind the chimera's, who would obviously be moving as fast as possible while avoiding AT fire as best as possible.

Also I thought the whole idea of a blob squad was to grind down the enemy in CC?
Would it be better to take the 2 hydras or a manticore if i free up another 10 points?

If you don't like Bs3 then Imperial Guard isn't the army for you.

Seriously? Every single time I post an IG list I have to say this, nobody seems to get it. The Infantry Squads have Autocannons because they are cheap and give the unit flexibility. This list will outshoot 99% of opponents, meaning they will generally be forced to bring the fight to you, meaning you can generally afford to sit still for a turn or two. Or it's an objective match, and you leave two Infantry squads at home in cover and send the empty Chimeras forward as a distraction/cover saves for your other Chimeras. Gee, isn't it nice that the Infantry Squad can contribute?

I think you're underestimating how difficult 8 vehicles are to take on at 1000 points. Go on, do the maths. Ignoring cover, a single Av12 vehicles takes an avergae of 13 BS4 missile launchers to destroy. How many missile launcher/equivalent does a normal 1000 point list take? 7-8, spread over 2-3 units?...I wonder where my Lascannons/Mutlilasers are going to be shooting first turn?

In regards to Vendettas, yes they're vulnerable, is this something new? They're supposed to be a fire magnet. I love Hydras as much as the next guy, but I'm pretty sure Chimera spam has enough s6/7 shots already.

Dimmy52 has the right idea. Quantity over quality.

Dimmy, why if I use Vendettas as transports, I put something like Flamer SWSs or PCSs and use them on turn 5 to capture/contest objectives. If the Vendetta gets blown up I expect the squad with them to die as well. In a kill point game I take them out, obviously.

MikZor, yes, Power blobs are indeed designed to do that. In fact, it is popular to use Straken with them, but alas, your low on points as it is. If you enjoy the power blobs and your looking to expand, that is a route to look at.

I have never used Manticores, but alot of people have spoken positively of them. I will defer to my colleges expertise.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
How in the heck do you figure 13 shots? Lets see... I hit on a 3+, or a 2/3 chance. So if I fire 3 shots, 2 hit. Out of those two shots on Str 8 I glance or pen on a 4+, 50%. On a 1, 2, 5, 6 (on a pen), either I destroy it or I keep it from doing anything for the next round, that is a 2/3 chance. If I glance that goes down to 50% chance of taking the vehicle out of the fight for a turn.

13 shots indeed.

13 Shots does seem a bit OTT to take out one vehicle, if it took that many, mech armies would be unstoppable, you would win with 2 wrecked tanks, and thats it. One reason i don't play mathhammer and play warhammer, it is a useful tool however don't get me wrong.

Ok cool i though that was the purpose, and if this list fails big time i can always revise it and take underwing what has been listed in this thread.

I'll try my orignal list, then the hydra list and then the manticore list, to get a feel for how each list holds up

Thanks for all the comments guys!

By doing basic maths? It takes an average of 3 penetrating hits to destroy a vehicle. It takes an average of 9 Missile Launcher hits to give you 3 penetrating hits. It takes an average of 13 shots at Bs4 to get 9 hits. It obviously gets worse when cover saves are taken into account, which good opponents will be able to generate.
Sure, sometimes your dice are on fire and all it takes is one shot. Alternatively sometimes you get 5 pens and can only stun/shake the damn thing. I prepare for the latter and hope for the former.

You might not play mathhammer, whatever that's supposed to mean, but you'd be an idiot to ignore the basic facts. There's a reason why mech is so good in this edition you know.

unbeliever87 wrote:By doing basic maths? It takes an average of 3 penetrating hits to destroy a vehicle. It takes an average of 9 Missile Launcher hits to give you 3 penetrating hits. It takes an average of 13 shots at Bs4 to get 9 hits. It obviously gets worse when cover saves are taken into account, which good opponents will be able to generate.
Sure, sometimes your dice are on fire and all it takes is one shot. Alternatively sometimes you get 5 pens and can only stun/shake the damn thing. I prepare for the latter and hope for the former.

You might not play mathhammer, whatever that's supposed to mean, but you'd be an idiot to ignore the basic facts. There's a reason why mech is so good in this edition you know.

I too prepare for the latter, but getting that isn't as bad as it seems, a shaken tank, is one less tank to worry about, it's not firing their turn, just like with weapon destroyed on things like hydras and manticores. It decreases their efficiency by a great deal.

All i meant was that i don't just crunch the numbers, you have to consider chance, so the "facts" are kinda more like guidlines to improve the chance, of course i fully understand where your coming from and i'm not going to rule out those guidlines or any advice you have given. It's just there's alot of different strategies that can work, power blobs for one, which i'm keen to try out, if they don't thats ok, no sleep lost. Then i will consider more mech/ tweaking to make it work.

MikZor wrote:

unbeliever87 wrote:By doing basic maths? It takes an average of 3 penetrating hits to destroy a vehicle. It takes an average of 9 Missile Launcher hits to give you 3 penetrating hits. It takes an average of 13 shots at Bs4 to get 9 hits. It obviously gets worse when cover saves are taken into account, which good opponents will be able to generate.
Sure, sometimes your dice are on fire and all it takes is one shot. Alternatively sometimes you get 5 pens and can only stun/shake the damn thing. I prepare for the latter and hope for the former.

You might not play mathhammer, whatever that's supposed to mean, but you'd be an idiot to ignore the basic facts. There's a reason why mech is so good in this edition you know.

I too prepare for the latter, but getting that isn't as bad as it seems, a shaken tank, is one less tank to worry about, it's not firing their turn, just like with weapon destroyed on things like hydras and manticores. It decreases their efficiency by a great deal.

All i meant was that i don't just crunch the numbers, you have to consider chance, so the "facts" are kinda more like guidlines to improve the chance, of course i fully understand where your coming from and i'm not going to rule out those guidlines or any advice you have given. It's just there's alot of different strategies that can work, power blobs for one, which i'm keen to try out, if they don't thats ok, no sleep lost. Then i will consider more mech/ tweaking to make it work.

I agree, there's more to life than a destroyed tank. A transport that can't move that turn or a tank that can't shoot is often just as good in the short-term. By twinlinking autocannon teams vs mech then the cahnces of hitting are far higher and if glancing transports every turn so their occupants need to bail out is a lot easier to achieve.

Ogryns can work, but I'm not sure at 1,000 points.

Infantry blobs are nice with power weapons, commisars, special weapons.