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Does anyone use this tank?

Is it worth the points ect-

Thanks-

From my point of view: Don't!

Though conversion models are always nice, the ruleset for the cannon itself is not that impressive given the points cost.
The only thing worth to shoot it at are basic Meqs in Cover. Wounds on 2+, no armor save, no cover save. BS 3 however prevents it from being effective.

I'd rather get 2 Griffons for almost the same price ( Usually, the Griffon's range is more comfortable in non-apocalypse games.)

With 2 Griffons, it is more likely that the blast covers more models, and you get 2 of it. With 2+ Wounding, it is more likely to get more than 2x the wounds compared to colossus, which nearly equals the lack of AP and "ignore cover".

It's pricey for what it does, but it does have niche; obviously MEQs. Unfortunately, it's not accurate enough to kill reliably, and S6 is pretty poopy against any vehicles you might scatter onto, even with ordnance penetration.

I usually stay away from artillery, unless it's significantly powerful for it's points (Manticore, Medusa) or cheap (Basilisk, Griffon somewhat).

I've been running it with a hybrid guard list, and it's been hit-or-miss for me (no pun intended). It does have applications beyond MEQs, though; any infantry that thinks it's safe in cover (normally) does not get the 4+ versus this blast, and combining that with a Psyker Battle Squad, you have a good chance of making infantry fall back. It severely punishes an Ork player whose KFF isn't in a vehicle as well. The pinning effect is a nice bonus, but not something to be relied on.

In a pinch, it can be used for counter-battery fire (if you've got nothing else for it).

I will say that my sample size is somewhere in the neighborhood of 10 games, and I had a particularly nasty streak of bad dice during that time (I'd go entire games without rolling a Hit on the scatter die).

I'm also experimenting with running a Hunter Killer missile on mine for the Dawn of War deployments, as I have the 10 points and don't like the idea of it being idle for the first turn.

Yeah, after a couple months without artillery (mostly as a result of fiddling with armored Company) I don't really want to use my Manties again. They're just not reliable, with the scattering problem. But if you have good luck with the scatter die, then go for it

thanks for the replys i might try it as a proxie in a few games see how it goes, just really keen on the forgeworld bombard model as a counts as, i have a traitor gurad army see and I think It would be really nice all done up in vraksian colours,

I'll see how it goes.

Thanks

I use mine in a traitor guard army as well; here's how I did mine (with a Fantasy Chaos Hellcannon):

Fascinating...advice is subjective of course.

This thing is A M A Z I N G.

MEQ - gone
Tau suits - gone
Necrons - gone.
Pesky units hiding in cover - gone.

Never, ever underestimate the power of AP3. That and no cover saves...this thing is great for blowing toops off objectives...

However, don't take my word for it...proxy one, and see for yourself. Apparently there are some players who have had experiences to the contrary.

Best of luck!!

The Colossus is the only IG artillery unit other than the Manticore that I'm afraid of. That said, it may not be an all-comers choice.

I've toyed with the colossus. I really like it for it's low AP and the fact that it ignores cover. Like some have said, it doesn't always hit, but when you roll that hit on the scatter dice, it will blow the hell out of what it does hit. There is nothing more annoying than the amount of 4+ cover I see all the time. I absolutely love having the ability to hit troops in cover and deny them that save. With that being said, I would ever take more than one, as I see really heavy mechanized lists where I play and I need to reliably be able to blow up armor. When I bring out the guard I generally use three manticores, or two manticores and one colossus.

My best advice is to proxy one up and give it a try for a couple games. It may or may not be for you.

I just don't like the fact that it has a pretty noticable minimum range (24", no?), add in the fact that it can't fire directly....I'll keep using my Manticore. I already have enough anti-MEQ in my lists.

The Colossus is great for the scare factor.
I have played it quite a bit and always make sure my oppoonent knows what it does. It makes opponents take bad decision with their precious "cover-sitters" that they are used to put safely onto an objective or in cover for shooting positions. As a result, the thing gets fired at a lot, which in most cases is bad target prioritization.
The Colossus doesn't hit often enough really, but the times that it does (or the thought that it might happen) is enough to throw many opponents off their game.

Don't forget, you can squadron a colossus!, sure, it's 420p but there is nothing that would piss off a MEQ opponent more than 3 barrage, no cover AP3 pie plates across the DZ first turn (just bring lots of autocannons to pop the rhinos and a manticore for LR's in case of Mech-MEQ then aim the bloody-big-mortar at the huddled masses around the smoldering wreckage).

HOWEVER, I think that tactic might warrant you a well deserved boot to the head in any friendly game...

I think that in the right army a colossus would be nasty.

Just take enough lascannons and autocannons to de-mech the enemy and hide your colossus behind some terrain (or failing that, behind chimeras). Wait until you kill a transport and then lay the pie-plate down on the bunched up sods.

All theory of course, but it does seem that mech IG often have a hard time actually killing the marines who spill out of those oh-so-easy-to-wreck transports.

I think it would be fun to make a very fluffy, siege based IG list. With all of the Heavy Support being Artillery of some sort and the infantry all take mortars and grenade launcher/flamers/meltas. I think your opponent would give up just because of all of the templates.

3 colossus, 3 griffon and a manticore for good measure comes out at just over 800p, so in a 2000p game its totally doable. Add 5 squads of mortar support and there will be a lot of dirt flying around

I love the Colossi. I field them every time I can, usually in squads of 2, and 3 if points permit. The S6 AP3 ignoring cover saves is just too good. Yes, you can scatter, but if you have 3, ON AVERAGE one will be on target, and one can scatter close for a partial hit. Then you'll hear sobbing coming from the other side of the table.

One important thing to mention about them is that you can drop them on units that get their saves from moving very fast (e.g. turbo-boosting) or from being small and skittish (e.g. swarms). Both types of saves are COVER saves. Since the colossi ignore cover saves, they make mincemeat out of these units as well. They are particularly effective against swarms - double the wounds, but each wound is instant death, AP3, and no cover save! I dropped some on a DE player's jetbikes. He thought he was safe because he turbo-boosted. Haha. Direct hit on 5 bikes. Wound on 2+, no armor, no cover. The unit got wiped out by a single template in one turn.

Similarly, colossi spell death for devastator types. Oh, we are at the other end of the board in a reinforced area cover with 3+ cover and in 3+ power armor. Hahaha. All devs under the template. Wounding on 2+, no saves. See ya.

The minimal range is not a problem, because you have the meat shield for your tanks anyway.

The only thing that has been problematic for them in my experience has been TH/SS DS terminators, but even they get wounded on 2+. Overall, with the massive proliferation of MEQ, colossi are worth it.

I disagree about the manticores by the way. Their AP4 is not good enough. There are better ways to do AT, and colossi are more useful against MEQs. Also manticores run out of ammo, are unreliable in terms of number of shots, and only come in squadss of one.

Im not an IG player, but theorycraft says that IG has a helluva hard time removing stuff in cover, holding an objective esp if its MEQ.

The problem is IG cannot assault anything properly, the best way to remove 10 MEQs in an objective and in cover.

And this is where the colossus comes in. Ill probably take a squad and almost always put it in reserves, so that it will be as far as possible, also psyching my opponent to spread out wider in the battlefield.

tracer wrote:3 colossus, 3 griffon and a manticore for good measure comes out at just over 800p, so in a 2000p game its totally doable. Add 5 squads of mortar support and there will be a lot of dirt flying around

Sounds like fun

Necrontyr40k wrote:
I disagree about the manticores by the way. Their AP4 is not good enough. There are better ways to do AT, and colossi are more useful against MEQs. Also manticores run out of ammo, are unreliable in terms of number of shots, and only come in squadss of one.

Str 10 D3 shots barrage, ordnance? Its a demolisher-cannon with 120" range and inderect as well as direct fire option! They clean house with landraiders and anything else armored a MEQ brings, perfect synergy with a collossus. If you are worried about termies (or paranoid about tanks) bring a couple of vendettas or plasmavets as well. Last game i took out an upgraded landraider first shot fired in the entire game (3 warheads 2/3 hits) it then went on to chew itself through a couple of rhinos and a predator.
I agree with the unreliable number of shots, but even a single str 10 dropped anywhere on the table is great. The limited ammunition really isn't a problem, after 4 turns it will likely have done what it was supposed to anyways and since games seldom last longer than 6 turns you're fine.

My first thought upon reading the thread title was that was going to concern a 40k Imperial Guard version of this guy.



Needless to say I am disappointed.

Str 10 D3 shots barrage, ordnance? Its a demolisher-cannon with 120" range and inderect as well as direct fire option!

Yes, strength is great, but it is not a demolisher (AP2). After "shoot the stabby, stab the shooty", the second most important mantra in WH40k is "Thou shalt deny saves to thy enemy at every step." It does not matter how well and hard you hit, if your opponent still ignores 2 out of 3 wounds you caused, or worse yet, 5 out of 6. That is why power weapons rule in CC and low AP rule in shooting. AP4 means you kill elves and orks. MEQ laugh it off.

They clean house with landraiders and anything else armored a MEQ brings, perfect synergy with a collossus.

Vendettas with 3 TL LC are more reliable, more manouverable, and cheaper, and they can be taken in squads. They can also outflank to hit side and rear armor. What would you rather have - d3 shots that hit 33% of the time at S10, or 3 guaranteed shots with 75% chance to hit (TL) S9 at 40 pts less? Vendettas beat the crap out of the Manticore in AT, and they do not compete with the colossi and executioners for HS slots.

The limited ammunition really isn't a problem, after 4 turns it will likely have done what it was supposed to anyways and since games seldom last longer than 6 turns you're fine.

On paper, yes, but the reality is IG wants long games, so their guns can whittle down the enemy before it reaches the artillery line. That is why IG uses tarpits like ogryns and commissar blobs to tie down the enemy to buy more time for the gunnery. If I sacrifice good men to buy 6 turns of shooting, being out of ammo on turn 4 makes me want to kick a supply officer in the teeth. The counter argument about doing damage fast only works if you are guaranteed 3 missiles per turn. Then the saturated fire makes up for the running out of ammo on turn 5.

I have a manticore model and have used it several times, always underperforming for me. More recently, playing against IG as Necrons, the manticore did nothing of note.

Necrontyr40k wrote:

Str 10 D3 shots barrage, ordnance? Its a demolisher-cannon with 120" range and inderect as well as direct fire option!

Yes, strength is great, but it is not a demolisher (AP2). After "shoot the stabby, stab the shooty", the second most important mantra in WH40k is "Thou shalt deny saves to thy enemy at every step." It does not matter how well and hard you hit, if your opponent still ignores 2 out of 3 wounds you caused, or worse yet, 5 out of 6. That is why power weapons rule in CC and low AP rule in shooting. AP4 means you kill elves and orks. MEQ laugh it off.

I wouldn't be using a manticore to hunt infantry, so AP does not factor in, the point is that it is one of the three str 10 (ordnance) weapons (not counting deathstrike) that is available to the IG (and the only one with 120" range), Manticores to pop the tanks, Colossus to kill whatever falls out of the wreck. Even if you roll a scatter, there is a chance that you will still end up over the target (especially if you fire direct and get the -3" from BS) on a hit you always roll against side armor as it is a barrage weapon. You also get the chance to ignore any cover since a barrage shot comes from inside the blastmarker.

A vendetta will hit on average 2 times with the TL-LC, but you still need to roll a 6 to penetrate any facing on a LR. A vendetta also needs to be in LOS and within 48" to fire meaning that it will be a prime target for every str 7+ heavy weapon your opponent has got, though it can move all-out and scout it will have to slow down to fire. The vendetta itself is a huge target on a tall flying base, practically anything on the battlefield will be able to fire at it as soon as that happens.

Necrontyr40k wrote:

They clean house with landraiders and anything else armored a MEQ brings, perfect synergy with a collossus.

Vendettas with 3 TL LC are more reliable, more manouverable, and cheaper, and they can be taken in squads. They can also outflank to hit side and rear armor. What would you rather have - d3 shots that hit 33% of the time at S10, or 3 guaranteed shots with 75% chance to hit (TL) S9 at 40 pts less? Vendettas beat the crap out of the Manticore in AT, and they do not compete with the colossi and executioners for HS slots.

As already stated, barrages roll against side armor, though it wouldn't matter against something heavy like a LR. A Colossus can be squadroned, so it would conceivably only use 1 slot.

Necrontyr40k wrote:

The limited ammunition really isn't a problem, after 4 turns it will likely have done what it was supposed to anyways and since games seldom last longer than 6 turns you're fine.

On paper, yes, but the reality is IG wants long games, so their guns can whittle down the enemy before it reaches the artillery line. That is why IG uses tarpits like ogryns and commissar blobs to tie down the enemy to buy more time for the gunnery. If I sacrifice good men to buy 6 turns of shooting, being out of ammo on turn 4 makes me want to kick a supply officer in the teeth. The counter argument about doing damage fast only works if you are guaranteed 3 missiles per turn. Then the saturated fire makes up for the running out of ammo on turn 5.

I have a manticore model and have used it several times, always underperforming for me. More recently, playing against IG as Necrons, the manticore did nothing of note.

First off, a vendetta that outflanks won't be able to fire for at least a turn and if it moves all out to get some cover it won't be able to fire, at most 5 rounds in a six-round game, provided it survives, considering it would have to stay in AC/LC range for the duration to be of any use.

If you need that many turns to kill off an opposing MEQ army with colossi and manticores you aren't doing it right. Tarpit is one way to go, but by far not the only way to defeat MEQ, usually by turn 4 i never have any decent targets left anyways, using 3 collossi and 2 manticores, all deployed in cover with 4 squads of veterans as troops.

If you need that many turns to kill off an opposing MEQ army with colossi and manticores you aren't doing it right. Tarpit is one way to go, but by far not the only way to defeat MEQ, usually by turn 4 i never have any decent targets left anyways, using 3 collossi and 2 manticores, all deployed in cover with 4 squads of veterans as troops.

Ok, how do you do it?

With the above build, let's say you get one pen on a transport for the 2 manticore due to scattering. That means 1 busted rhinos on the first turn. You drop the colossi on the emerging squad and say wipe it off. So, on average you will wipe out one rhinoed squad per turn. You may get a bit lucky and get 2 busted rhinos per turn, but still one wiped MEQ squad. Or, may get unlucky and get a stunned or immobilized result, or completely scatter off.

Going with averages, you kill one transport and the MEQ it transports per turn. But, a BA player will drop Shrike with the death company on turn 2, or turn 3 if he gets somewhat unlucky or you bring officer of the fleet. They assault the same turn they come in, so your line is already crumbling on turn 2. On turn 2, his rhino marines are already at your picket line. Even if they do not manage to assault, they are likely already inside the collosi dead space, and besides firing blasts so close to your line runs the risk of friendly fire casualties.

The above does not count the rest of the goodness that will be targeting you, e.g. LR and/or dreds depending on the MEQ army.

What am I missing? How do you suppress MEQ within 3 turns, so by turn 4 you don't have targets left?

Necrontyr40k wrote:

If you need that many turns to kill off an opposing MEQ army with colossi and manticores you aren't doing it right. Tarpit is one way to go, but by far not the only way to defeat MEQ, usually by turn 4 i never have any decent targets left anyways, using 3 collossi and 2 manticores, all deployed in cover with 4 squads of veterans as troops.

Ok, how do you do it?

With the above build, let's say you get one pen on a transport for the 2 manticore due to scattering. That means 1 busted rhinos on the first turn. You drop the colossi on the emerging squad and say wipe it off. So, on average you will wipe out one rhinoed squad per turn. You may get a bit lucky and get 2 busted rhinos per turn, but still one wiped MEQ squad. Or, may get unlucky and get a stunned or immobilized result, or completely scatter off.

Going with averages, you kill one transport and the MEQ it transports per turn. But, a BA player will drop Shrike with the death company on turn 2, or turn 3 if he gets somewhat unlucky or you bring officer of the fleet. They assault the same turn they come in, so your line is already crumbling on turn 2. On turn 2, his rhino marines are already at your picket line. Even if they do not manage to assault, they are likely already inside the collosi dead space, and besides firing blasts so close to your line runs the risk of friendly fire casualties.

The above does not count the rest of the goodness that will be targeting you, e.g. LR and/or dreds depending on the MEQ army.

What am I missing? How do you suppress MEQ within 3 turns, so by turn 4 you don't have targets left?

2 manticores fire on the first turn, on average thats's 4 strength 10 but as it follows the barrage-rules it is actually quite possible to save an early scatter as you can place the second blast anywhere touching the first, even better with 3 shots as the third only would have to touch one of the other blasts. So if the first shot scatters and two hits you can walk back up to 10 inches from where you landed first, basically the barrage rules gives you a lot more leeway. Against a LR you can scatter ~7" on the first shot (average on 2d6), if the second is a hit you can still get the hole over the tank. Works even better against groups of rhinos, squadrons of predators and stuff like that since it increases the chances of you hitting something even if you scatter. SA 11 gives you the possibility of a glance even if it is only touching and RA 10 gives you the chance to pen. In a game around 2000p where everything is bunched up at turn 1 it can be devastating. Also, don't forget that a landraider or rhino that isn't moving forward isn't doing its job, the earlier you hit it, the better, and immobilized is just as good cause then the marines would have to get out and walk.... into the 3 no-save AP3 markers.


So where's shrikes transport? We are discussing how to best de-mech and destroy a MEQ army with lots of transports as early as possible and prefferably doing it as a siege regiment that only takes artillery as heavy support.

Good point about using the scatter rules to your advantage. Thanks! I'll try that.

But, it still does not answer the main question - how do you suppress MEQ in transports at 2000pts so by turn 4 you have no good targets left. By the already shown calculation, on average you kill one rhino and wipe out its squad, per turn. This means in 3 turns of firing, you wipe out three rhinos with their contents. But, this assumes no return fire and shaken results, while anything but the first rhino will get to your line and possibly in assault in turn 2 and 3.

Also, points-wise, 2 manticores and 3 collosi are 160+160+3x140=740 pts base. A rhino with 10 MEQs is about 250 depending on kitting. All that artillery has to do the trick at least three times to be worth its points. Hard to believe they would have the time in view of the above.

For this king of application, hydras are a better choice - 3 hydras will get 12 shots with rerolls, so 9 will hit, which is 2 pens and a glance and 3 more results. Statistically, that takes out a rhino with more certainty than scattering templates. Hydras are also cheaper (225 for 3 instead of 320 for 2) and take only 1 HWS slot. Alternatively, take 2 hydras in 2 squads. Each will have 8 shots, 6 hits, so 2 pens and a glance exactly on average. Each squad is 150 points (still 10 points cheaper than a manticore). They also do not run out of ammo and have 48" range. Then you pop 2 rhinos per turn and wipe out one MEQ squad.

Necrontyr40k wrote:Good point about using the scatter rules to your advantage. Thanks! I'll try that.

But, it still does not answer the main question - how do you suppress MEQ in transports at 2000pts so by turn 4 you have no good targets left. By the already shown calculation, on average you kill one rhino and wipe out its squad, per turn. This means in 3 turns of firing, you wipe out three rhinos with their contents. But, this assumes no return fire and shaken results, while anything but the first rhino will get to your line and possibly in assault in turn 2 and 3.

Also, points-wise, 2 manticores and 3 collosi are 160+160+3x140=740 pts base. A rhino with 10 MEQs is about 250 depending on kitting. All that artillery has to do the trick at least three times to be worth its points. Hard to believe they would have the time in view of the above.

For this king of application, hydras are a better choice - 3 hydras will get 12 shots with rerolls, so 9 will hit, which is 2 pens and a glance and 3 more results. Statistically, that takes out a rhino with more certainty than scattering templates. Hydras are also cheaper (225 for 3 instead of 320 for 2) and take only 1 HWS slot. Alternatively, take 2 hydras in 2 squads. Each will have 8 shots, 6 hits, so 2 pens and a glance exactly on average. Each squad is 150 points (still 10 points cheaper than a manticore). They also do not run out of ammo and have 48" range. Then you pop 2 rhinos per turn and wipe out one MEQ squad.

Sure, you can go with hydras too, but that defeats the purpose of an all artillery siege army.

The prime target for the manticores would be landraiders and other AV 13-14 stuff rather than rhinos, a manticore is 160 points, if it can kill a single landraider you have earned back its points and more. The Colossi can fire on anything on foot so they just have to wait for autocannons and manticores to do their job, then fire on anything that moves and even take potshots on anything with SA 11. For rhinos, well... did you bring your AC's along? Of course you did, you play guard.
Cracking landraiders early is especially important when you play against CSM as their LR's tend to be loaded with Berzerkers and other nasty stuff you really don't want to be in the same hemisphere as. I usually take vendettas to, but it has come to the point where people I play are all to keenly aware of the hurt one of those (or three) can dish out so they tend to prepare for them. Benefits of artillery (as always) is that they can be behind the lines, bubble-wrapped and behind cover.

As a backup I'd take 2-3 banewolves to keep close to the lines and waste any badguys that make it that far.


Example, last game against chaos with 2 LR's, 4 Rhinos, predators and dreadnaught.

First turn, 2 manticores fire 5 shots at LR1, 3 misses, 2 hits (using the travelling barrage trick), both penetrate, immobilized. 2 blob squads get "bring it down" and fire their 3 AC's against two different Rhinos, one wrecked and one immobilized. Collossi fire barrage at wrecked rhino, 8 dead marines. 3 Lascannon blob brings down a predator. Then his turn starts.

Basically by now he's lost half of his alpha strike potential and a blow to morale as his assault units are rapidly being de-meched. Any return fire against the artillery is screened by the blobs and cover, since the blobs fill most of my deployment he can't deepstrike behind me without risking falling of the board.

Collosus is pretty bad. It is too specialized and the minimum range of 24 and it can't fire directly really gimps it since if you don't have first turn your opponent is moving 12 inches towards the collosus. You sort of have to put it in the corner which makes it vulnerable to outflankers as well.

I rather have a Manticore with d3 strength 10 large templates which I can shoot at Land raiders or fire at infantry.

Your Blood Angel opponent won't be dropping Shrike with their Death Company and assaulting you in the same turn. It's so obviously impossible that I can't help but wonder if Necrontyr40k was joking or meant to say something else entirely.

My personal solution to that sort of situation involves direct fire so it isn't really applicable to this discussion.

Raxmei wrote:Your Blood Angel opponent won't be dropping Shrike with their Death Company and assaulting you in the same turn. It's so obviously impossible that I can't help but wonder if Necrontyr40k was joking or meant to say something else entirely.

I misspoke - it was not BA but vanilla marines, and they outflanked instead of deepstruck. It happened just a week from yesterday in a league game. He had Shrike with a large unit of jump-pack assault marines with power weapons. I was playing necron. On the second turn, he outflanked and came in from my right flank. They zoomed in 12 inches, then ran, then assaulted my destroyers. A bloody mess. For some reason all his marines had Fleet. I have never actually fielded marines, as I am IG/Necron player, so I get sometimes confused about all their variants and special rule builds.