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Necrontyr40k wrote:I misspoke - it was not BA but vanilla marines, and they outflanked instead of deepstruck. It happened just a week from yesterday in a league game. He had Shrike with a large unit of jump-pack assault marines with power weapons. I was playing necron. On the second turn, he outflanked and came in from my right flank. They zoomed in 12 inches, then ran, then assaulted my destroyers. A bloody mess. For some reason all his marines had Fleet. I have never actually fielded marines, as I am IG/Necron player, so I get sometimes confused about all their variants and special rule builds.

Yeah, that happens. It's actually possible to get first turn assaults using Shrike if you're bold enough. All of his marines were fleet because Shrikes chapter tactics exchanges combat tactics for it. It's one of the many reasons why you should have contingency plans for what happens when the enemy gets up in your grill around turn 2 or so. Thankfully a squad of assault marines +IC isn't as calamitous as the death company assaulting straight from reserves.

There is the age old Basilisk/Demolisher tag team that's easily be adapted for the Colossus. A lot of the time the enemy will try rushing your artillery and the Demolisher likes being close to the enemy.

Raxmei wrote:

Necrontyr40k wrote:I misspoke - it was not BA but vanilla marines, and they outflanked instead of deepstruck. It happened just a week from yesterday in a league game. He had Shrike with a large unit of jump-pack assault marines with power weapons. I was playing necron. On the second turn, he outflanked and came in from my right flank. They zoomed in 12 inches, then ran, then assaulted my destroyers. A bloody mess. For some reason all his marines had Fleet. I have never actually fielded marines, as I am IG/Necron player, so I get sometimes confused about all their variants and special rule builds.

Yeah, that happens. It's actually possible to get first turn assaults using Shrike if you're bold enough. All of his marines were fleet because Shrikes chapter tactics exchanges combat tactics for it. It's one of the many reasons why you should have contingency plans for what happens when the enemy gets up in your grill around turn 2 or so. Thankfully a squad of assault marines +IC isn't as calamitous as the death company assaulting straight from reserves.

There is the age old Basilisk/Demolisher tag team that's easily be adapted for the Colossus. A lot of the time the enemy will try rushing your artillery and the Demolisher likes being close to the enemy.

Yeah, that's a good one, I love demolishers

A couple of banewolves defending can also put an outflanking marine in hot water.. 12" inch move and AP3-poisoned with no scatter, add a HF or MM and park it somewhere close to your artillery. Ok, so it won't kill of termies, but thats what you use plasmavets or plasmablobs for.

colossus' are awesome...most of the time. They fill an important niche which is long ranged infantry (MEQ or worse) killing that is in cover. In other words, devistators hiding in a building, dead, tac squad on an objective, dead, pesky guard lascannon or autocannon squads hiding in cover, dead, and not just dead, instant dead.

Hide it behind a whole lot of infantry, possibly behind some cover, and blast away. It's really only good in larger point battles as it fulfills that all important cover+infantry killing niche

As a competitive choice, how many competitive builds does it really excel against?

Deathwing? No.

Mech GK? No.

DE? No.

Mechdar? No.

Mech Vets? No.

Kan Wall? No.

BA? Maybe.

SW? Well, if you're facing 3 units of Missilefangs it might be useful.




Basically it's not sufficiently versatile.

NuggzTheNinja wrote:As a competitive choice, how many competitive builds does it really excel against?
Deathwing? No.
Mech GK? No.
DE? No.
Mechdar? No.
Mech Vets? No.
Kan Wall? No.
BA? Maybe.
SW? Well, if you're facing 3 units of Missilefangs it might be useful.

Basically it's not sufficiently versatile.

Ok, it is not good against 2+ armor, but it works very well against most of the above:

DE - yes. Ignoring cover saves means it is deadly to jetbikes. It insta-kills wyches in cover, so they don't get their FNP. They are absolutely brutal to DE. So, I'd say they excel here.

Mech Vet - yes. Once you pop the transports with AT, colossi wipe out the infantry scurrying into cover or hiding in the crater. It also insta-kills officers, commissars, and HWT.

Kan Wall - yes. They are large barrage that ignore cover and wound orks on 2+. Barrage means blast comes from center, so kans offer no cover. I'd say they are excellent.

BA - large units of 3+ armor, all bunched up in cover waiting for their turn to assault. How is it that large templates that ignore 3+ armor and ignore cover do not excel here? Is there anything else that can do this at long range and for the points?

SW - yes. There is nothing else in IG that can smash devs out of cover. Again, unique combo of range, large blast, ignore cover, and AP3.

If the above is not versatile, I do not know what is versatile.

I think I have been swayed, Colossus seems like a great choice and the bombard model is awesome, plus I need some artillary for my Vraksian renegades!


Thanks for all the replys!

Necrontyr40k wrote:

Ok, it is not good against 2+ armor, but it works very well against most of the above:

DE - yes. Ignoring cover saves means it is deadly to jetbikes. It insta-kills wyches in cover, so they don't get their FNP. They are absolutely brutal to DE. So, I'd say they excel here.

Mech Vet - yes. Once you pop the transports with AT, colossi wipe out the infantry scurrying into cover or hiding in the crater. It also insta-kills officers, commissars, and HWT.

Kan Wall - yes. They are large barrage that ignore cover and wound orks on 2+. Barrage means blast comes from center, so kans offer no cover. I'd say they are excellent.

BA - large units of 3+ armor, all bunched up in cover waiting for their turn to assault. How is it that large templates that ignore 3+ armor and ignore cover do not excel here? Is there anything else that can do this at long range and for the points?

SW - yes. There is nothing else in IG that can smash devs out of cover. Again, unique combo of range, large blast, ignore cover, and AP3.

If the above is not versatile, I do not know what is versatile.

Wyches shouldn't be in cover. They should be in vehicles. When you destroy the vehicle you're probably killing a ton of Wyches anyway.

Mech Vets shouldn't be in cover. When their vehicles DO explode, over half the squad dies and they're probably going to be pinned or run away. Again, you don't need to pound the dismounted squad. You need to deal with the 5 OTHER Vet squads that are still in vehicles.

Kan Wall? OK, so unless your opponent is mentally challenged he's spreading out his Orks, so you're going to hit 3 or 4. 3 or 4 dead Orks out of 30? Big...deal...

The competitive BA builds revolving around AV13 spam and Razorbacks mostly. The ideal situation for your Colossus is that you smoke 5 Assault Marines after something else kills their Razorback. Big deal. The Razorback was the greater threat in the first place.



The only place where it excels is against bunched up units of 3+ save models. So basically against anything with Power Armor and only when their transport is wrecked. In these cases you aren't targeting the primary threats (the transports) or other units, you're targeting units that are probably neutered anyway.

NuggzTheNinja wrote:

Wyches shouldn't be in cover. They should be in vehicles. When you destroy the vehicle you're probably killing a ton of Wyches anyway.

Unfortunately, wyches don't die when their transport blows up. They emerge in the ruin which gives them cover saves (I don't know why but those are the rules). So, first you need to wound them on a 4+ (S3 vs T3), then they do their cover save 4+, then wychever fail (sorry, had to be done) roll FNP. So only 1 in 8 wyches will die to it. And, they are now in cover. if the skiff is wrecked, a good player rings them around the wreck to make sure you can only see less then half of them, ergo cover.

Mech Vets shouldn't be in cover. When their vehicles DO explode, over half the squad dies and they're probably going to be pinned or run away. Again, you don't need to pound the dismounted squad. You need to deal with the 5 OTHER Vet squads that are still in vehicles.

S4 vs T3 is 3+, followed by their cover save of 4+ (see above) means only 1 in 3 die on average, not over half. The casualties are taken on the lasguns and a stern but fair lord commissar within 12 inches easily persuades them to remain in combat (LD10). That unit still has all its special weapons and remains a threat.

Kan Wall? OK, so unless your opponent is mentally challenged he's spreading out his Orks, so you're going to hit 3 or 4. 3 or 4 dead Orks out of 30? Big...deal...

If he spreads out like that, you are already ahead. He will not assault as a solid wall, so you have the chance of whittling him down piecemeal. Also, if he spreads like that, all templates, even the scattered ones, will hit multiple models on decent sized games. Yes, griffons are far more efficient against orks, but essentially useless against MEQ, while colossi are effective against both.

The competitive BA builds revolving around AV13 spam and Razorbacks mostly. The ideal situation for your Colossus is that you smoke 5 Assault Marines after something else kills their Razorback. Big deal. The Razorback was the greater threat in the first place. The only place where it excels is against bunched up units of 3+ save models. So basically against anything with Power Armor and only when their transport is wrecked. In these cases you aren't targeting the primary threats (the transports) or other units, you're targeting units that are probably neutered anyway.

The job of the transports is to get the troops to you, so they can kill you in close combat. So, they are the primary threat in turn 1-2. But, in the end, what will kill you is the troops they carry. I see nothing wrong with working on the troops since turn 1. In 5 turns, you get to fire each colossus 4-5 times, hopefully. If that wipes out 20-25 decked-out marines, the artillery has done its job and more.

You do not get cover saves when your own vehicle explodes. You take your saves prior to placing the models on the table. Wyches in an exploding vehicle, if wounded, will get their 6+ save and FNP if they have it. Not a 4+ cover save from the crater which does not exist at the time when they are taking their saves.

Guardsmen embarked in Chimeras will be wounded on a 3+ and save on a 5+.


If you think you're going to kill 20 Marines in one game with a Colossus you're dreaming or playing against people who don't know what 2" coherency looks like.

NuggzTheNinja wrote:
The competitive BA builds revolving around AV13 spam and Razorbacks mostly. The ideal situation for your Colossus is that you smoke 5 Assault Marines after something else kills their Razorback. Big deal. The Razorback was the greater threat in the first place.

And since you roll against side armor when aiming at vehicles you do have a chance in 3 to get a penetrating against a razorback, should your AT-stuff fail miserably to provide you with any other targets.

NuggzTheNinja wrote:You do not get cover saves when your own vehicle explodes. You take your saves prior to placing the models on the table. Wyches in an exploding vehicle, if wounded, will get their 6+ save and FNP if they have it. Not a 4+ cover save from the crater which does not exist at the time when they are taking their saves.

Can you point out where the rule is regarding that? Is it a FAQ thing? Because meta has a lot of experienced players and that is how they play it - you get cover saves to the explosion.

If you think you're going to kill 20 Marines in one game with a Colossus you're dreaming or playing against people who don't know what 2" coherency looks like.

Well, for whatever reason, they bunch up more often than not.

Necrontyr40k wrote:

NuggzTheNinja wrote:You do not get cover saves when your own vehicle explodes. You take your saves prior to placing the models on the table. Wyches in an exploding vehicle, if wounded, will get their 6+ save and FNP if they have it. Not a 4+ cover save from the crater which does not exist at the time when they are taking their saves.

Can you point out where the rule is regarding that? Is it a FAQ thing? Because meta has a lot of experienced players and that is how they play it - you get cover saves to the explosion.

If you think you're going to kill 20 Marines in one game with a Colossus you're dreaming or playing against people who don't know what 2" coherency looks like.

Well, for whatever reason, they bunch up more often than not.

No rule is needed to disallow cover saves as 40k uses a permissive rules set. You take cover saves when your unit is in cover, or there is cover between the firing unit and its target, or when there are intervening models, or when a unit is firing out of area terrain. The entry in the rulebook simply says,

Destroyed – explodes!
The unit suffers a number of Strength 4, AP– hits equal
to the number of models embarked, treated just like hits
from shooting. The surviving passengers are placed where
the vehicle used to be and then take a Pinning test.

So the unit suffers the hits and THEN are placed in the area terrain. They are not placed in the area terrain, and THEN suffer the hits. You do not get coversaves when embarked in transports by virtue of that unit being afterward placed in area terrain.

NuggzTheNinja wrote:

Necrontyr40k wrote:

Ok, it is not good against 2+ armor, but it works very well against most of the above:

DE - yes. Ignoring cover saves means it is deadly to jetbikes. It insta-kills wyches in cover, so they don't get their FNP. They are absolutely brutal to DE. So, I'd say they excel here.

Mech Vet - yes. Once you pop the transports with AT, colossi wipe out the infantry scurrying into cover or hiding in the crater. It also insta-kills officers, commissars, and HWT.

Kan Wall - yes. They are large barrage that ignore cover and wound orks on 2+. Barrage means blast comes from center, so kans offer no cover. I'd say they are excellent.

BA - large units of 3+ armor, all bunched up in cover waiting for their turn to assault. How is it that large templates that ignore 3+ armor and ignore cover do not excel here? Is there anything else that can do this at long range and for the points?

SW - yes. There is nothing else in IG that can smash devs out of cover. Again, unique combo of range, large blast, ignore cover, and AP3.

If the above is not versatile, I do not know what is versatile.

Wyches shouldn't be in cover. They should be in vehicles. When you destroy the vehicle you're probably killing a ton of Wyches anyway.

Mech Vets shouldn't be in cover. When their vehicles DO explode, over half the squad dies and they're probably going to be pinned or run away. Again, you don't need to pound the dismounted squad. You need to deal with the 5 OTHER Vet squads that are still in vehicles.

Kan Wall? OK, so unless your opponent is mentally challenged he's spreading out his Orks, so you're going to hit 3 or 4. 3 or 4 dead Orks out of 30? Big...deal...

First off, I'd appreciate it if you don't toss around the words "Mentally Challenged." Plenty of people really are mentally challenged, and those of us who have siblings that are don't appreciate the use of that term in the way you are using it in. But lets get back to talking tactics . Generally, If a person is playing a kan wall, then he will have 3-4 30 man mobs running behind it. That's 90-120 models. And when moving that many models, and being really careful to keep them all in kff range, then if you are trying to keep all of your orks 2" away from each other, then you are going to spend so much time moving your models that in any tournament, you won't be able to play more than 3 turns.

The competitive BA builds revolving around AV13 spam and Razorbacks mostly. The ideal situation for your Colossus is that you smoke 5 Assault Marines after something else kills their Razorback. Big deal. The Razorback was the greater threat in the first place.



The only place where it excels is against bunched up units of 3+ save models. So basically against anything with Power Armor and only when their transport is wrecked. In these cases you aren't targeting the primary threats (the transports) or other units, you're targeting units that are probably neutered anyway.