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Hey. I want to include at least 1 cheap squad of objective-sitters in my mechanized Ork list for seize ground missions. What do you Ork generals find more effective for that role- grots or shoota boyz? Compare, for example:

15 shoota boyz, no upgrades- 90 points

or

23 gretchin and 2 runtherds- 89 points


I think the two units have about the same durability to small arms fire (the gretchin have T2!), but the Gretchin are, ironically, less likely to run than the orks, due to squig hounds. On annihilation missions, I would definately rather have the shootas, since they might actually kill something.

anything I'm missing in my analysis? Discuss.

Gretchin are better for sitting on objectives. Orks should be in the fight causing trouble. And it doesn't have to be 15 shootas or 23 gretchin....10 gretchin and a runtherder are 40 points, and unsurpassable for sitting in the backfield on an objective getting ignored.

Regardless of the fact that they are T2, there are MORE OF THEM!!!

Don't waste gunz on boyz that aren't 80% gonna use them. The enemy can only kill so many gretchin per turn.

But that's just my face-value opinion....

Dashofpepper wrote:Gretchin are better for sitting on objectives. Orks should be in the fight causing trouble. And it doesn't have to be 15 shootas or 23 gretchin....10 gretchin and a runtherder are 40 points, and unsurpassable for sitting in the backfield on an objective getting ignored.

The reason I posted those two options is that I have 90 leftover points in my current list to spend.

I see your point about the minimum Gretchin squad, but I'd be wary of entrusting something as important as an objective to such a fragile unit. No matter how well you hide the objective, a single outflanking or deepstriking unit of any size can wipe them out in a single turn. Objectives win games, so I was hoping for a squad that wouldn't be wiped in a single turn by 5 scout marines. But I do want it to be cheap... so maybe you're right.

Maybe I'm being too paranoid. Thanks to both of you for responses.

Well what's the rest of your list like? That should help better. But in general yes, Gretchin.

Ok, here's what I'm thinking right now (not including the random foot mob that the post is about)

2000 pts.

HQ:
Biker Warboss
Warbike, Powerklaw, Cybork (leads Nob Bikers)

Big Mek
KFF, 'Eavy Armor, Burna, Bosspole (leads burnas in BW.)

TROOPS:
3 Nob Bikers (troops)
1 PK, 1 Big Choppa, 1 Bosspole

4 trukk mobs
lead by Nob with pk. and bosspole. Trukks have Rams, 2 Trukks have Planks (all protected by KFF battlewagon)

FAST ATTACK:
3 mobs of 2 Deffkoptas
all have TL Rokkits

ELITES:
15 Burna Boys (ride in Battlewagon with KFF mek)

2 mobs of 5 Lootas

HEAVY SUPPORT:
Battlewagon
Zzap! gun and Deathrolla

Looted Wagon
Boomgun


EDIT: my strategy is to line up all 5 of the transports side-by-side in KFF range. I did some tests, and the Trukks can move a full 18" and still all stay in range of the Battlewagon KFF for turn 2. After that, it won't matter, because the trukks will either be stuck in or blown up. The Koptas and Bikes turbo-boost 1st turn to buy the trukks that crucial turn they need. If the Koptas and bikes are ignored to target my trukks, the enemy will have some destroyed tanks on his hands. The Lootas and Boomwagon try to kill a transport for my Trukk boyz to assault on turn 2 or 3. The Burnas try to kill off enemy "hammer" units.

Hmmmm well for that list, Gretchin easily. However it's a fast list so I'd suggest leaving that idea out altogether.

In regards to the list I'd personally remove the boomwagon and trade out the koptas for bikers, but that's just me.

Juvieus Kaine wrote:Hmmmm well for that list, Gretchin easily. However it's a fast list so I'd suggest leaving that idea out altogether.

In regards to the list I'd personally remove the boomwagon and trade out the koptas for bikers, but that's just me.

What would you suggest for home objective camping? The trukks are a bad unit to use for that, it's a complete waste of their speed. I could be persuaded to trade out the Boomwagon, what would you suggest? I wanted some fire-support to blow transports up before the trukks hit home.

I personally like the Koptas over Bikers, for their greater anti-tank ability. Scout turbo-boost and their ability to fly over blocking units allows them to reliably target back armor on vehicles by turn 1 or 2 if they're not dealt with.

Don't consider home-objective camping in a fast list, simply put Your goal as a speedy ork is to be... speedy. You must get to the enemy first and krump heads. Hiding at the back is not speedy

Now for your troops you've got it right - trukker boyz. More the merrier is always best, so really with spare points you want more - 6 mobs ideally at 2000pts I'd say. Now to get fast you've gone okay for other models - Nob bikerz and Biker Boss is good albeit expensive so, potentially for trukking up but your choice there. The Boomwagon is not fast and meant to be stationary, and really one Boomwagon won't do much at all. For the koptas I'd suggest then to get either mobs of 5 or single units, since its either mass kopta rush or single sneaky kopta trickery. The Big Mek should be cyborked instead of 'eavied since cyborks really help out more despite being a lower save. My only real concern from there is the battlewagon. Assuming you get 2 more mobs of trukker boyz, that Battlewagon is riding solo... tricky.

Juvieus Kaine wrote:Don't consider home-objective camping in a fast list, simply put Your goal as a speedy ork is to be... speedy. You must get to the enemy first and krump heads. Hiding at the back is not speedy

really appreciate the input, man. I have to ask, though, isn't this philosophy, fun as it may be, just giving away games? I mean, in 2 objective missions, if you don't even leave a token squad on an objective, you can only win if you table the opponent, essentially. I'm not sure this list will work as a leafblower. Not saying you're wrong, just asking how you would deal with the problem.

Juvieus Kaine wrote:Assuming you get 2 more mobs of trukker boyz, that Battlewagon is riding solo... tricky.

Would love to run 6 trukk mobs, but I ran out of space in troops! I consider the nob bikers plus Warboss obligatory for this list. I need distractions and units that can kill transports early. My elites are filled, too, so I have to take the nobs as troops. I suppose I could take 5, if I took out the Looted Wagon.

Agreed that the solo battlewagon is tricky. If it gets taken out, I just hope it absorbs enough fire to allow my other units to do what they do.

Maybe I should think about A Big Gunz battery of Kannons? They're not too expensive, and a full battery with ammo runts has a good chance of taking out a Rhino on turn 1, which would be ideal. What is the typical load-out of these? There are lots of options- ammo runts, extra crew, a runtherd... thoughts?

anyone else think I should just forget about a home-objective scoring unit? Anyone think they should be in there?

digi laser wrote:

Juvieus Kaine wrote:Don't consider home-objective camping in a fast list, simply put Your goal as a speedy ork is to be... speedy. You must get to the enemy first and krump heads. Hiding at the back is not speedy

really appreciate the input, man. I have to ask, though, isn't this philosophy, fun as it may be, just giving away games? I mean, in 2 objective missions, if you don't even leave a token squad on an objective, you can only win if you table the opponent, essentially. I'm not sure this list will work as a leafblower. Not saying you're wrong, just asking how you would deal with the problem.

Oh no don't worry, you're right in that regard. However IMHO a trukker list is meant to bash heads first then consider objs later on. Since you're nice and fast with your trukks and other units you should get into combat by turn 2 in most cases. Sure there's the odd fireball but otherwise, go bonkers. Around turn 4, if you can't table them, consider the objs and backtrack with the trukker boyz in trukks if they're still about. I know there's an element of luck behind this but it's potential. To keep it safe then yeah a small unit of gretchin or something can stay at base.

digi laser wrote:

Juvieus Kaine wrote:Assuming you get 2 more mobs of trukker boyz, that Battlewagon is riding solo... tricky.

Would love to run 6 trukk mobs, but I ran out of space in troops! I consider the nob bikers plus Warboss obligatory for this list. I need distractions and units that can kill transports early. My elites are filled, too, so I have to take the nobs as troops. I suppose I could take 5, if I took out the Looted Wagon.

Agreed that the solo battlewagon is tricky. If it gets taken out, I just hope it absorbs enough fire to allow my other units to do what they do.

Maybe I should think about A Big Gunz battery of Kannons? They're not too expensive, and a full battery with ammo runts has a good chance of taking out a Rhino on turn 1, which would be ideal. What is the typical load-out of these? There are lots of options- ammo runts, extra crew, a runtherd... thoughts?

First point - you've got space 1 slot in fact, since Troops slots are up to 6 and you've used 5. So plenty of space for another mob of trukkers. Now your Elites may still be filled if you consider the burna-filled wagon as par tof the list. If not, you can shift the bikers but entirely your call.

As for the wagon, my main concern (and this is from experience) is that it will lag behind. Bit unit of burnas and the Big Mek, now that's a nice unit to have sprawled onto the dirt as it were. Be wary of it when in use and try and keep the guns off it, which will be difficult. Also beware those turkker mobs won't benefit from the shield by Turn 2-3 onwards - the range will be exceded quite fast and you'll notice the gap from the KFF and the trukks. Oh and ideally you don't want that Zzap gun on it - you're moving all the time so firing it will be... rare at best. RPJ and armour plates can help out better methinks.

Kannons... I think I see your thought plan. You're concerned that your mob will hit your opponents mob and have to bash through the bawxes before you beat the contents up. Now you can combat this with boarding planks and rams on your trukks or use range. You've got Lootas there already which is a start in that way, so yeah there's potential for Kannons to work. I'd grab another Battlewagon meself, support the first one better. But that's me

Juvieus Kaine wrote:As for the wagon, my main concern (and this is from experience) is that it will lag behind. Bit unit of burnas and the Big Mek, now that's a nice unit to have sprawled onto the dirt as it were. Be wary of it when in use and try and keep the guns off it, which will be difficult. Also beware those turkker mobs won't benefit from the shield by Turn 2-3 onwards - the range will be exceded quite fast and you'll notice the gap from the KFF and the trukks. Oh and ideally you don't want that Zzap gun on it - you're moving all the time so firing it will be... rare at best. RPJ and armour plates can help out better methinks.

Kannons... I think I see your thought plan. You're concerned that your mob will hit your opponents mob and have to bash through the bawxes before you beat the contents up. Now you can combat this with boarding planks and rams on your trukks or use range. You've got Lootas there already which is a start in that way, so yeah there's potential for Kannons to work. I'd grab another Battlewagon meself, support the first one better. But that's me

I did a test on my living room floor, and was quite pleased to find that if the trukks and battlewagon deploy touching, in a line like this:

T T BW T T

Then the Trukks can move a full 18" in a straight line and still all be in KFF range after the BW moves 12". After that, they can split off to disembark and assault, and the KFF's job is done anyway.

I do have the points and the slot for another BW. That bears considering. The only way to fit it "in formation" of the KFF will be to deploy it behind some trukks, though. And it'll have to carry regular boyz, no space in the FOC for anything else. Hmm.

You are spot on about my plan. Thing about trukk mobs is that if they charge, they can take most things that come out of a transport. But they have no shooting Anti-tank, and if they have to get out and assault the transport, then they take the charge and will probably lose. I'm looking for enough firepower to break open the boxes, then swoop in with the trukks.

I'm still thinking about at least that 40 point squad that Dashofpepper recommended, but I'm tempted by more transports, as well. I would love to max out the FOC at 2000 points for maxiumum target saturation.

I've never been a fan of TT BW TT kind of armies.

One target for the heavy anti-tank to focus on (AV12 most likely since trukks aren't big enough to screen, and it has a narrow front profile), and several targets for the light anti-tank to focus on. What's more, taking down the battlewagon first takes 1-2 of the trukks out of KFF range. While embarked, the KFF ranges from the hull of the battlewagon, which is significantly greater than just himself.

So target priority for your enemies: Battlewagon until dead. Flanking trukks no longer screened by the KFF. And finally the other two.

Trukks work, but they do so when they're either being screened by battlewagons as a supporting assault element, or when there's a crapload of them.

Agree to dash. The only real way to compensate for this is fielding two KFFs in the trukks closest to the bw, which leads to the question why you would want to field a bw in first place, rather than more trukks.

Juvieus Kaine wrote:Hmmmm well for that list, Gretchin easily. However it's a fast list so I'd suggest leaving that idea out altogether.

In regards to the list I'd personally remove the boomwagon and trade out the koptas for bikers, but that's just me.

I agree, keep the gretchin. If possible, get two mobs, as they can't both be broken in one volley.

As for the boomwagon, I disagree. I always field one, just because there is nothing more satifying than taking out an entire enemy squad in oneshot

Jidmah wrote:Agree to dash. The only real way to compensate for this is fielding two KFFs in the trukks closest to the bw, which leads to the question why you would want to field a bw in first place, rather than more trukks.

Well, I took the BW because I think Burnas are awesome, and it seemed like the best transport for them. They're the best answer we have to Terminators, for example. I also didn't want to have the KFF in a flimsy trukk, because that's a big target. Yeah, I guess I'd be s.o.l. if the 'Wagon goes down turn 1. Hmm.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Talon1 wrote:

Juvieus Kaine wrote:Hmmmm well for that list, Gretchin easily. However it's a fast list so I'd suggest leaving that idea out altogether.

In regards to the list I'd personally remove the boomwagon and trade out the koptas for bikers, but that's just me.

I agree, keep the gretchin. If possible, get two mobs, as they can't both be broken in one volley.

As for the boomwagon, I disagree. I always field one, just because there is nothing more satifying than taking out an entire enemy squad in oneshot

So, you're suggesting 2 Gretchin mobs? What size? I only currently have 1 Troops and 2 Heavy Support slots open (if I take out the Boomwagon), which leaves me with 195 points left.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dashofpepper wrote:I've never been a fan of TT BW TT kind of armies.

One target for the heavy anti-tank to focus on (AV12 most likely since trukks aren't big enough to screen, and it has a narrow front profile), and several targets for the light anti-tank to focus on. What's more, taking down the battlewagon first takes 1-2 of the trukks out of KFF range. While embarked, the KFF ranges from the hull of the battlewagon, which is significantly greater than just himself.

So target priority for your enemies: Battlewagon until dead. Flanking trukks no longer screened by the KFF. And finally the other two.

Trukks work, but they do so when they're either being screened by battlewagons as a supporting assault element, or when there's a crapload of them.

Just did some physical tests. This doesn't appear to be true. The thing to remember is that when the Battlewagon is destroyed, the Mek disembarks. The front of his base ends up about 3.5" further forward than the front of the Wagon was due to his base size (medium base). Believe it or not, you only lose about 1" of KFF coverage on each side, because the battlewagon is so narrow, and you position the center of the bubble 3.5" farther up.

In other words, you will not lose any kff coverage for the flank trukks when the Battlewagon goes down, as long as you had them deployed pretty closely. And they don't have to slow down their movement at all on turn 1 to accomplish this.

Uh...digi-laser....

In the scenario you just outlined, when you suffer a wrecked result, you're going to be disembarking your entire squad of burnas and the KFF out in front of the battlewagon with just the KFF's 5+ to live on?

There are other scenarios too - the battlewagon gets exploded and your models get placed inside the footprint of the vehicle's explosion. Or where you don't have room to disembark out the front. If you put your trukks base to base with your battlewagon....and if you don't have wreckin' balls modeled onto your trukks, and if there are no side gunners on your battlewagon...then disembarking a Big Mek in the explosion radius puts him still within 6" of two trukks on each side.

However, doing so is going to expose you to some SERIOUS weaknesses if you run into anyone using a handful+ of skimmers.

Dashofpepper wrote:Uh...digi-laser....

In the scenario you just outlined, when you suffer a wrecked result, you're going to be disembarking your entire squad of burnas and the KFF out in front of the battlewagon with just the KFF's 5+ to live on?

There are other scenarios too - the battlewagon gets exploded and your models get placed inside the footprint of the vehicle's explosion. Or where you don't have room to disembark out the front. If you put your trukks base to base with your battlewagon....and if you don't have wreckin' balls modeled onto your trukks, and if there are no side gunners on your battlewagon...then disembarking a Big Mek in the explosion radius puts him still within 6" of two trukks on each side.

However, doing so is going to expose you to some SERIOUS weaknesses if you run into anyone using a handful+ of skimmers.

No, I didn't model any wrecking balls or side gunners, so it works just fine.

Unless there's a significantly rippy unit within 6" primed to assault them, yeah, I'd put them out in front. What else are you going to do? This is 5th edition, you're not going to completely escape TLOS with a flootslogging 16-man unit... ever. They would have a 4+ cover save from all angles except straight ahead due to the Trukks to either side, and they get a 5+ cover from units directly ahead of them. That is just as durable as Burna Boyz can get, outside of a transport. Free movement is free movement. There are very few disadvantages to using it.

If they did take a few casualties, it would almost be good. Then they could kick out a squad of boyz, and ta-da! Burna Boyz ride again.


I just wanted to point out that there is no reason the trukks have to lose KFF coverage at all when the battlewagon blows up. I mean, Wagons are so narrow that you're only losing maybe half an inch on each side, compared to the Mek's base.

Why would I have a serious weakness against skimmers? Any more than any unit whose transport has been blown, I mean.

digi laser wrote:

Unless there's a significantly rippy unit within 6" primed to assault them, yeah, I'd put them out in front. What else are you going to do?

digi laser wrote:
Why would I have a serious weakness against skimmers? Any more than any unit whose transport has been blown, I mean.

6"....

Dude, Orks can generate a 30" assault range. So can Dark Eldar. Plenty of armies have 18" assault ranges. What else are you going to do? You could drop your boyz behind your wagon/trukks, or between vehicles - doing enough to give yourself 4+ cover against shooting instead of the 5+ conferred by the KFF.

And your weakness against skimmers is in movement: You've got a battlewagon and four trukks crammed side by side without room between them. One skimmer to jump over you (flat out), and the other to park in front of you (both 1" away) perpendicular to your lines...and now a wrecked result = auto-dead unit inside - since there is nowhere for them to deploy. Ork vehicle walls (and all armies in fact) should have their vehicles spaced at least 1.25" - 1.5" away from each other so that disembarking troops can fit between them.

I can't tell you how many vehicles I've killed that have lost all passengers due to maneuvers like this - and the other favorite, the transport vehicle with the hatch against the table edge (Eldar in particular). Mech IG line lined up against the table edge with vehicles base to base getting multi-assaulted....and all passengers dying to wreck results since there is nowhere to disembark.

You're at a disdavantage because of how you choose to play, not because of an inherent flaw in your codex.

Dashofpepper wrote:

digi laser wrote:

Unless there's a significantly rippy unit within 6" primed to assault them, yeah, I'd put them out in front. What else are you going to do?

digi laser wrote:
Why would I have a serious weakness against skimmers? Any more than any unit whose transport has been blown, I mean.

6"....

Dude, Orks can generate a 30" assault range. So can Dark Eldar. Plenty of armies have 18" assault ranges.

Yes, but we're in the shooting phase. 6" is all I'd worry about, since the movement phase is gone. Ork Boyz only have a 6" threat range by the time the shooting phase rolls around (except in case of Waaagh!. Short of an extra d6" from the odd fleet movement, you only have to worry about units within 6" at the time the BW gets blown up. If it gets blown up in Assault, the optimal move will be even more obvious.

And your weakness against skimmers is in movement: You've got a battlewagon and four trukks crammed side by side without room between them. One skimmer to jump over you (flat out), and the other to park in front of you (both 1" away) perpendicular to your lines...and now a wrecked result = auto-dead unit inside - since there is nowhere for them to deploy. Ork vehicle walls (and all armies in fact) should have their vehicles spaced at least 1.25" - 1.5" away from each other so that disembarking troops can fit between them.

I suppose this could happen. Thing is, unless my BW is getting scrapped before it ever moves (hopefully not... and at least then there won't be a skimmer parked behind it.) then the formation will look like this:

T T--------T T
-------BW-------

due to the 6" gap in speed. So, as you can see, every vehicle has at least 3 open sides, and the BW has 4. The skimmer trick shouldn't work in this case.

What else are you going to do? You could drop your boyz behind your wagon/trukks, or between vehicles - doing enough to give yourself 4+ cover against shooting instead of the 5+ conferred by the KFF.

As you can see from my crappy diagram above, putting the Big Mek and Burnas in front of the BW isn't as suicidal as you might have thought. They'll end up looking like this:

T T (orks) T T


In fact, disembarking them as far forward as possible makes the 4+ cover save more likely. Seems like a no-brainer, unless there is a squad of Genestealers or something pretty close.

You're at a disdavantage because of how you choose to play, not because of an inherent flaw in your codex.

This, I just don't understand. I never said there was any sort of flaw in the codex.

Does this plan make more sense, Dash, or are you still of the opinion that it's a terrible idea? I think this is starting to get into "yeah, but a smart player will..." territory. (Skimmer counter?) Yes, everything is counterable, but my hope is that it won't be terrible.