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Conditions: tervigon in troops section is selected to be the outflanking troops choice mentioned in the Hive Commander upgrade.

Before it moves onto the board, can I spawn gants?

I've played a few games where I was told that I can't, but this seems odd because the same opponent has tank shocked onto the board.
The reason he can is that he is moving onto the board.
The reason I think I should be able to is that I am also moving onto the board. But the spawn rule says it happens before moving.

So... Can I spawn gants with my outflanking tervigon before I move on?

No. You spawn gaunts before you move. So if your Tervigon isn't on the table, where do you spawn from?

Tank shocking is different as it is basically a form of movement. And the fact the FAQ says you can tank shock onto the table.

But I'm moving onto the table. Only restriction on spawn is I do it before I move.

Exactly. You when you come onto the table you have moved so you can't spawn.

But I'm moving onto the table. Only restriction on spawn is I do it before I move.

When you are off the table, no rule says you can do *anything* with a particular model. Therefore, you cannot. Once you are on the table, you have moved, and therefore cannot spawn gaunts that turn. Outflank your tervigon (which is a huge bonus to begin with, why are you trying to cheese it out worse?) then start creating termagants the turn afterward, Like Everyone Else!

Yup, there is nothing beyond the edge of the table. What happens if the centre of a blast weapon lands off the table...automiss. What happens when a unit falls back off the edge of a table...destroyed. There is nothing there.

Once you start moving onto the table you lose the chance to spawn for that turn. There is absolutely nothing in the rules that allows you to spawn while off the table, so you can't.

Even if you assume you can spawn before moving onto the table it isn't going to help you. You must immediately place the spawned gaunts within 6" of the Tervigon, but the Tervigon isn't on table to measure to. So you can't place them within 6" and they are immediately destroyed.

But there exists NOWHERE in the rules a specification on that, so we can only use the rules as they govern the present information.
Again, there is no rule stating I have to be on the table to do anything.
The unit is in reserve, so it starts off of the table.
When it becomes available from reserve, it moves onto the table.
I can spawn termagants every turn as long as I have rolled no doubles, even in combat, but BEFORE I move.
Therefore, before I move onto the table, since there are no rules stating I have to be on the table to spawn gants, I can spawn.

Since there exists no rule stating that I cannot, it must be allowed. 40 k is a permissive rules set. It tells you specifically what you can do when. I may spawn before I move. Move onto the table once the tervigon becomes available from reserves.

There is no necessity for further rules giving me permission. The rules that are in place seem to allow it.

Even granting a model the ability to use an ability when not on the board (which I do not agree with). How do you place the termagunts within 6' of a tervigon that is not on the board . . . Spawn, place (measure), move?

Doomthumbs wrote:
Since there exists no rule stating that I cannot, it must be allowed. 40 k is a permissive rules set. It tells you specifically what you can do when. I may spawn before I move. Move onto the table once the tervigon becomes available from reserves.

How far can a normal marine move? 6" right? How far can a Lascannon fire? 48" right? How do we know this? The rulebook tells us right?

So where in the rulebook or the NID DEX does it say you can spawn Gants while off the table? It doesn't say you can so you can't.

Chrysis wrote:Even if you assume you can spawn before moving onto the table it isn't going to help you. You must immediately place the spawned gaunts within 6" of the Tervigon, but the Tervigon isn't on table to measure to. So you can't place them within 6" and they are immediately destroyed.

I think this is the salient point. There is nothing that explicitly prohibits you from making a spawn roll before the Tervigon moves onto the board. However, once you make the roll to spawn there is no legal way to place the resulting Termagaunts. Once you nominate a point of entry for the Tervigon, you have begun its deployment from reserves and therefore it has moved and is no longer eligible to spawn. So feel free to spawn off the board because the only thing that can effect the game is that you roll doubles and depleted Tervigon enters play.

PanzerLeader wrote:So feel free to spawn off the board because the only thing that can effect the game is that you roll doubles and depleted Tervigon enters play.

Also free VP's and/or KP's.

No, it states that I can spawn before I move.
It says nowhere that units off the board cannot preform actions.
It isn't just a unit acting while in reserve, this is after it has been activated from reserve, before moving on the table.

You seem to be missing the point.
Lets say i allow you to spawn before you move on your tervigon; you must place your gaunts within 6 inches of the tervigon. Wheres the tervigon?
not on the table, so what do you think your going to do, place them 6 inches from nowhere?

Doom, try putting your Termagaunts within 6" of a Tervigon off the table, as the spawning rules demand.

Now what do you do? You can't move them onto the board, because they were never placed in reserve, rolled for, and then allowed to walk onto the table.

Even if you could roll for spawning before moving onto the board, it wouldn't provide any benefit, and merely gives you a chance to roll doubles.

Doomthumbs wrote:No, it states that I can spawn before I move.
It says nowhere that units off the board cannot preform actions.
It isn't just a unit acting while in reserve, this is after it has been activated from reserve, before moving on the table.

WH40k has a permissive rule set, which means that the rules tell you what you can do. It isn't like laws, which tell you that you cannot do things. Your only options are to do what the rules say you can, or don't do anything.

's absolutely true that the rules do not say that units off of the board cannot perform actions, but that kills your case. You can ONLY do actions as per the rule book. It isn't "The rulebook says I can do X, and it doesn't forbid Y, therefore I can do X and Y."

It is only "The rulebook says I can do X, therefore I can only do X as Y isn't an option that I can choose from."


Tyranid player here. It would be cool if you could breed, but you can't. An outflanking tervigon is more than enough to secure that rogue objective in no man's land, even if you have to forgo a turn breeding. Which you have to. Permissive Rules.

somerandomdude wrote:Doom, try putting your Termagaunts within 6" of a Tervigon off the table, as the spawning rules demand.

Now what do you do? You can't move them onto the board, because they were never placed in reserve, rolled for, and then allowed to walk onto the table.

Even if you could roll for spawning before moving onto the board, it wouldn't provide any benefit, and merely gives you a chance to roll doubles.

And as others have pointed out, you can't use the point you are going to move on from because you don't choose the point until you start to move on at which point it's too late to spawn.

If you spawn while off table, then good luck placing them within 6" - you have No ability to measure to the tervigon. None whatsoever. So the gaunts are immediately destroyed - they cannot legally be placed anywhere.

So, do it if you wish. At best you give up some VPs

Doomthumbs wrote:No, it states that I can spawn before I move.
It says nowhere that units off the board cannot preform actions.
It isn't just a unit acting while in reserve, this is after it has been activated from reserve, before moving on the table.

It also says no where that you can spawn them off the board.
It's not big deal, just catalyst yourself for the turn, you'll be fine. An outflanking tervigon is a massive boon, be happy!

nosferatu1001 wrote:If you spawn while off table, then good luck placing them within 6" - you have No ability to measure to the tervigon. None whatsoever. So the gaunts are immediately destroyed - they cannot legally be placed anywhere.

So, do it if you wish. At best you give up some VPs

I'm providing your quote instead of others who brought up this point because you are a venerated member of this particular forum branch of Dakka. Your "do it if you wish" seems to concede the point that the rules generally agree with being able to spawn while off the table. Your main concern is that there is no way to measure distance to a tervigon that is not currently on the board. So where is it, according to the rules? (This is the part where I actually look at a rulebook and start laying down some quotes.) I was surprised when I looked, as these seem like reasonable points.

Pg 94 Big Rule Book, Outflank.
"Models move onto the table as described for other reserves."

PG 94 Big Rule Book, Arriving From Reserve
"Each model's move is measured from the edge of the battlefield, as if they had been positioned just off the board in the previous turn and moved as normal."

So the measurement for gant placement would occur just as measurement from the model that is off of the table would be measured. The tervgon is placed just off the edge of the table, as if it moved there the previous turn. But before I measure from the front of the tervigon onto the table to make my move, I spawn the gants, measuring from the same designated spot that the tervigon would measure its move from. Then I move onto the table with the tervigon. The GW I play at actually has a wood framing around the realm of battle boards. Just enough space for a tervigon to be placed there before moving onto the table.

MikZor wrote:It also says no where that you can spawn them off the board.

It doesn't need to. Since there is no guideline for what can or cannot happen, we can't make up rules for that, even ones that make sense.
What there IS a rule for is spawning before I move, and where the tervigon is placed before it moves onto the board.

Doomthumbs - you're bolding the wrong parts.

"Each models move" is the important bit; by the time you get to the "as if...." part, you have ALREADY started your move. AS you have already started to move, you cannot spawn gaunts. Prior to this point, you have no fixed location, and no ability to measure to the tervigon.

Doomthumbs wrote: What there IS a rule for is spawning before I move, and where the tervigon is placed before it moves onto the board.

You quoted some good rules fromthe reserves section. But you missed an important one or two.

You say you can spawn gaunts before you move.
Codex Tyranids says you can do so in the Tyranid Movement phase before the Tervigon moves.

This is listed in the codex as a special rule for the Tervigon.

Now, we have this from the latest main rule FAQ:
Q: If a unit is in reserve, and it has an ability that
occurs at the start of a turn can they use that ability on
the turn they arrive? (p94)
A: No. Unless specifically stated otherwise.

This along with the fact that as per page 94 under rolling for reserves, after you have rolled for all reserves, "...the player picks any one of the units arriving and deploys it, moving it onto the table as described later."

And finally, "When a reserve unit arrives, it must move onto the table from the controlling player's own table edge..."

Clearly, when the Tervigon arrives from reserve, it must move onto the table and can do no other actions until it has completed that step.

Plus, per the FAQ, it cannot use its special rule on the turn it arrives unless specifically stated, so the Tervigon entry would have to have a specific reference that would not only allow the Tervigon to spawn gaunts when arriving from reserve, it would also have to detail the mechanics of doing so, such as exactly where they would arrive.

time wizard wrote:

Now, we have this from the latest main rule FAQ:
Q: If a unit is in reserve, and it has an ability that
occurs at the start of a turn can they use that ability on
the turn they arrive? (p94)
A: No. Unless specifically stated otherwise.

And with that, the thread ends, right?

The FAQ quote settles it, thanks for actually quoting a definitive rule. The rest of the reasoning is hackery, as the tervigons rule says before it moves. No wording in the reserves section causes it to be otherwise.
"Each models move" is the moot part, nos. Tervigons rule says before moving, so that would happen before the action of the move.

Thanks again to time wizard for the quote, instead of flimsy reasoning.

Doom -no, it really isnt moot. Before you begin to move the Tervigon, it isnt anywhere - it is only when you move it on from reserves that you imagine it was placed just off the board edge.

No, its Moot and the thread is over. I appreciate your need to have the last word, but the tervigon isn't floating out in the warp before placement. It has a placement defined by the rulebook.

Its "as if they had been positioned just off the board in the previous turn and moved as normal."

Its not going from a nowhere spot to another nowhere spot. Its coming from a spot unmentioned to a spot just off the board, the previous turn. Its been in that spot, by the rules, for a full turn. I can measure from that spot.

Before Time wizard (Thanks again, btw. I like stuff to be wrapped up by an actual ruling) effectively ended the thread (and definitively ended it in my mind), I remain convinced that the tervigon had a place from which to measure to place gants. I could point at any spot along the table edge and say,
"There. That spot right there."
and that would have become the spot which the tervigon would move on to the table.

The tervigon's rule states I do it before it moves. Nowhere does the rulebook say you have to be on the table to preform an action, and there are indeed units that do preform actions whilst off the table. The rules definitely state that the units arriving from reserve move on, yes. But if that unit is a tervigon, it utilizes its (specific>general) power BEFORE it moves. The Tyranid player "deploys it, moving it onto the table as described later." Catch that? It deploys, then moves. Deploys just off the table, like it moved there last turn.

So, its now not only moot, but furiously beating a dead horse.
Because Time Wizard, not you, locked that answer down.

(Thanks again, by the way.)

Note that arriving from reserves is both placing the model and moving it. So you'd never get a chance to use any abilities inbetween. This is explained in "rolling for reserves" on Page 92. It even clarifies that you must move the unit onto the table as soon as possible, spawning guants first would not be ASAP.

Jidmah wrote:Note that arriving from reserves is both placing the model and moving it. So you'd never get a chance to use any abilities inbetween. This is explained in "rolling for reserves" on Page 92. It even clarifies that you must move the unit onto the table as soon as possible, spawning guants first would not be ASAP.

Note that that is on page 94, not 92, and you added the phrase "as soon as possible" to the movement sentence. The part you are referring to, where "ASAP" occurs, is the part where it says I cannot roll for the tervigon, get it from reserves, and decide not to deploy it. You're intentionally distorting the information to suit your argument.

There is no phrasing at all in regard to the model having to be moving as soon as it comes from reserve. As such (before the FAQ I forgot to check), there is no restriction to using the ability before arriving on the table. MAYBE this is why they included this in the FAQ! And not because of some weird word sorcery you or anyone else is brewing up.
Again, thread is now over, I am satisfied that it cannot happen, and further arguing is pretty much [Mod Edit - Rule 1. Please follow it.].

Doomthumbs - seriously, you're reading "as if" to mean :is actually"

It was not there the turn before. WHEN YOU START TO MOVE IT, you place it there, as if it had been there fore a turn. It hasnt actually been there for a turn.

So no, the point isnt moot. Even without the FAQ answer, you were still prohibited from doing any thing productive with it.