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ok rules lawyers I have a question.

I like to field 2 squads of heavy destroyers in my 2k armys

1 squad consists of 1 Heavy destroyer, the other squad is 2 heavy destroyers. They fly near each other and i know I'm giving up a kill point to do it but the goal is to keep the entire group from simply being shot down(if they are all in the same squad and i take 3 wounds then i dont get WBB).

Now my question

the group of 2 drops, group of 1 stays up. failed both WBB with the 2, monolith is within 18' I want to pull the squad of 1 through to get WBB on the two that failed, guy I'm playing with calls shenanigans. I disagree but I'm winning so i let it go(so much so that he gets angry and quits at the end of round 3, i don't entirely blame him, I made 15/17 WBB in a round and used the monolith to bring that up to 17/17)

what do you think? do you have proof either way? as i understand the rules when the squad goes down it pretty much becomes part of a new squad within 6', or at very least when the WBB rolls are made it counts as part of that squad within 6'(assuming its a like unit, destroyers with destroyers, warriors with warriors and so on)

thanks for any comments/help

I'm pretty sure this is correct. When you teleport through the Monolith you are allowed to roll again for WBB. I don't think the models that failed their WBB has to be within 6" of the squad that teleports through the portal. That initial 6" is for the first WBB roll. They are considered a "part" of the squad now. If that squad teleports through the Monolith, then they all get WBB again.

No this is incorrect. Only models being teleported through the monolith get a second chance at a wbb.

For example, 10 warriors: 5 get shot down, 5 are alive. You fail all 5 wbb. You teleport that group of 10 through the monolith (5 alive and 5 down) and the 5 that are down get a second chance at wbb.

In your situation, the 2 heavy destroyers that are down can't be teleported because there wasn't at least 1 live model in that unit

omerakk wrote:No this is incorrect. Only models being teleported through the monolith get a second chance at a wbb.

For example, 10 warriors: 5 get shot down, 5 are alive. You fail all 5 wbb. You teleport that group of 10 through the monolith (5 alive and 5 down) and the 5 that are down get a second chance at wbb.

In your situation, the 2 heavy destroyers that are down can't be teleported because there wasn't at least 1 live model in that unit

Omerakk has it correct, although, in the case of your destroyers, if only one wbb failed, one that failed would no longer be part of the squad being teleported, and thus, would not be eligible for the reroll.

Just to add another step onto this, if one destroyer from the squad of 2 did get back up, he'd join the unit of 1 obviously, can that unit then use the portal to try and get the last one back?

Sorry for the thread jack

MikZor wrote:Just to add another step onto this, if one destroyer from the squad of 2 did get back up, he'd join the unit of 1 obviously, can that unit then use the portal to try and get the last one back?

Sorry for the thread jack

No it can't, because the dead group still doesn't have a live model to teleport. All that happened, was group B lost one of its units which joined Group A after making its initial wbb roll.

omerakk wrote:

MikZor wrote:Just to add another step onto this, if one destroyer from the squad of 2 did get back up, he'd join the unit of 1 obviously, can that unit then use the portal to try and get the last one back?

Sorry for the thread jack

No it can't, because the dead group still doesn't have a live model to teleport. All that happened, was group B lost one of its units which joined Group A after making its initial wbb roll.

Makes sense, thanks alot for clearing that!

It's quite a common mistake tbh - people forget that the models awaiting WBB are part of their original unit UNTIL they make a WBB roll, at which point they join whichever unit they can.

For proof of this you read the monolith teleport rules, as this states you teleport the unit and any of ITS models awaiting WBB

I don't play it like this. The two failed HD's where eligible for first WBB. They can as a unit (still just the two of them) be portaled through for a second WBB attempt.

So in the original example as the group of two HD where eligible for WBB they are allowed a second chance via the Monolith portal.

Confussion if the first passes.
Now if one passed it would join the other unit prevously with one Hd in it. If you wanted to save the remaining HD you would have to portal the downed unit, now only one strong, through the lith to give the second chance of WBB.

I have only played in one comp and this is how I played it.
Most people are happy that you are saving something rather than firing that whip!

tallerguy wrote:I don't play it like this. The two failed HD's where eligible for first WBB. They can as a unit (still just the two of them) be portaled through for a second WBB attempt.

So in the original example as the group of two HD where eligible for WBB they are allowed a second chance via the Monolith portal.

Confussion if the first passes.
Now if one passed it would join the other unit prevously with one Hd in it. If you wanted to save the remaining HD you would have to portal the downed unit, now only one strong, through the lith to give the second chance of WBB.

I have only played in one comp and this is how I played it.
Most people are happy that you are saving something rather than firing that whip!

That's nice, but it's still wrong.

Tallerguy - no, that is incorrect.

You cannot measure to the downed models, and as such cannot port *just* them through the monolith. So while they exist as a unit, it is not an extant model and cannot be within 18" of the monolith

I always figured it simply as such:

If a unit has all remaining models waiting for WBB, that unit is destroyed, period. The only thing you're going to accomplish by WBB at this point is to bolster another unit with the downed unit and avoid phase-out. None can rez back to the "downed" unit, even if you roll a successful rez on every model. Rememer, that the necron codex tells you to treat downed models as "debris"... not still part of the unit. You can't use them to effect anything in the game other than where the models were dropped in the first place, and how many.

With this in mind, the ability to teleport them is not allowed, because until they succeed the initial one, they are not associated with that unit. Since the unit they were originally with is no longer around, they don't get to re-roll (or be teleported) either. ...if that doesn't make sense, then just concede that everyone you do that to is going to blow a gasket, so don't plan to do it.

WBB is quite a piece of work (sarcasm) from a rules standpoint. I had played several hundred Necron games before I started to understand the codex completely. Some of it was written poorly, but still more of it is just edition gaps. Especially when other players want to read your codex and tell you what it means according to 5th edition rules. That's why I've shelved my models until they re-release the codex, which should hopefully be happening sometime this fall.

Diesel - they are still part of their originating unit, because a) the rules dont tell you they are not, and b) they MUST be otherwise you could never get a monolith reroll. As added weighty to the ownership being the originating unit (and not "empty") the FAQ requires you to move the debris with a unit, if that unit falls back.

TO be clear - I'm agreeing with your conclusion, however just trying to make it clear exactly what "unit" status downed models have, and that is: their original unit, even if that unit is composed entirely of models awaiting WBB

well, it seems like a majority dislikes my reading of the rules. I'll look over them one more time for for now it sounds like I need to stop my cheating ways . Thank you guys very much for all of your responses

Incorrect / wrong maybe in your option but until a FAQ states other wise or more liikely a new codex we are stuck with the grey. I would argue this point.

I am sure you guys have played way more games than me as I have only picked up 40K this year.

The bit that niggles me is the "Any models in the unit that, although eligible for self repair, failed their WBB roll at the start of the turn and were removed, may re roll once as they emerge from the portal"

If they failed it they are allowed a second chance...

tallerguy wrote:Incorrect / wrong maybe in your option but until a FAQ states other wise or more liikely a new codex we are stuck with the grey. I would argue this point.

I am sure you guys have played way more games than me as I have only picked up 40K this year.

The bit that niggles me is the "Any models in the unit that, although eligible for self repair, failed their WBB roll at the start of the turn and were removed, may re roll once as they emerge from the portal"

If they failed it they are allowed a second chance...

The key part is any models in the unit.
When the 2 HD got killed, they were no longer a unit.
If 1 passes WBB, it becomes part of the closest unit, which would be the other HD.
The remaining one is not a part of any unit so it cannot teleport through the portal.

time wizard wrote:

tallerguy wrote:Incorrect / wrong maybe in your option but until a FAQ states other wise or more liikely a new codex we are stuck with the grey. I would argue this point.

I am sure you guys have played way more games than me as I have only picked up 40K this year.

The bit that niggles me is the "Any models in the unit that, although eligible for self repair, failed their WBB roll at the start of the turn and were removed, may re roll once as they emerge from the portal"

If they failed it they are allowed a second chance...

The key part is any models in the unit.
When the 2 HD got killed, they were no longer a unit.
If 1 passes WBB, it becomes part of the closest unit, which would be the other HD.
The remaining one is not a part of any unit so it cannot teleport through the portal.

+1 to this right here.

Not to mention the fact that the monolith rules tell you to treat units exiting the portal as if they are disembarking from a transport. Last I checked, dead models can't embark or disembark. No live model in a unit = no teleport

At what point does a downed Necron model become a part of a nearby unit? Before WBB is rolled for or upon a successful WBB roll?

It is upon a successful WBB roll. The Necron model then joins the closest unit of the same type.

Is that spelled out as such in the Necron codex (don't have it on me)?

Yes, page 13, last paragraph under WBB says repaired Necron is placed in coherency with the closest unit of the same type.
Usually this is models in the same unit, but if the unit has been completely wiped out, any Necron model that is within range of a Necron model of the same type will be eligible for WBB. In that case, the repaired Necron will join that other unit.

Thanks Time Wizard, that makes sence to me now.