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This thread is about how to make the most competitive classic DE Kabal army, and how then you'd go about playing it. This is the sort of army that we think of from the fluff, and from Dark Eldar appearances in Black Library books. Here are what I see as being the components of a Classic Kabal list:

- An Archon (special characters allowed) with an Incubi, Trueborn, or Court of the Archon bodyguard.
- Comprised primarily of Kabal units. Warriors, Trueborn, Incubi, and vehicles. (Possibly Scourge?)
- Includes allies/mercenaries from Cults or Covens, but these are not the core of the force or the primary focus of the army.

Such a list is forced to be a hybrid build. It can be mostly shooting with some assault elements, but as you'll be using at least one unit of Incubi, Wyches, Wracks, or Beasts it's not going to be 100% shooting. Likewise, since you're stuck with some warriors, it won't be purely melee.

This should be a fluffy minded list, but that doesn't mean we should just throw up our hands and take whatever we want. The challenge here is to cover all our bases of anti tank, anti infantry, scoring, etc while remaining within these fluff restrictions, and then figure out the best tactics for playing the resultant list. We should also consider fluff and flavor when designing our unit builds, not just the types of units we take. For the sake of diversity try to avoid too many units with the same configuration, and no 2 of the same non-kabal units. It's pluasible that you'd have several warrior squads as the core of your troops, but having several Trueborn squads that all min/max blasters for your elite doesn't make so much fluff sense.

The fluff restrictions provide us with some challenges. To name a few:

- Archons bring some interesting options to the table, but aren't killy on the level of other race's HQs. Do we keep them cheap and just get it over with, or spring for something fancy like huskblade+soultrap? Blaster+djinn blade? These fancy combos get expensive fast, and their mileage can really vary. But in the right situations, they can unleash hell.

- Archon+Incubi is a defining unit of the Dark Eldar. But, such a unit gets expensive quickly, and becomes a very obvious target for your opponents to focus on. What is the optimum size for it? How do we best protect it, or best punish our opponents for focusing so much on it?

- Every good Archon has a Haemonculus working for him, or a Succubus to entertain him. How do we make our supporting HQs useful?

- With the diversity restrictions ruling out popular choices like triple trueborn blaster squads and 6 5 man warrior squads for troops, how do we ensure we've got enough anti tank?

Overall, my goal here is to see some discussion of unit optimization within the restrictions of a theme list, rather than with only the restrictions of the game rules. By sticking to the theme, we lose some powerful options, but make room for some diverse units and different playstyles. So, what approach would you take to building your Classic Kabal?

Well tbh a Kabal list is a pretty broad term because Kabals control the Dark City, each with their own Wych cults, Incubi, Haemonculi, vehicles (including the fliers) and Scourges which they in some way or other control, finance or are allied to. The only real rouge element are the Hellions, which are generally independent biker gang type groups but they can still work with a Kabal.

Essentially the only thing you are really limited by are a) wanting an Archon as an HQ and b) having Warriors/Trueborn as the core of the list. That still leaves a range of competitive builds, but because you are Warrior focused (again it depends on how Warrior focused you want to be) the most obvious are Dark Lance and/or Venom spam based lists (with the Archon either as a cheap Blaster or a solo counter assault unit with Shadowfield and Agoniser). As you don't want to go all out one way or the other you could just do a combination, 2-3 x 10 Warriors with Dark Lance in Raiders, 2-3 x 5 with Blasters in Venoms, 2 units of Trueborn with Blasters and 1 with Dark Lances (in Venoms or Raiders doesn't matter) and a unit or two of Wyches (or maybe Wracks if you have a Haemonculi) if you want to fill up your Troops. Its not as obviously spammy and should still be very effective.

Also does Mayls count as an Archon? I've TheoryHammered out a Tri Razorwing list which used her, plenty of Dark Lances and Warriors in a very gunline style list.

Anyway, the amount you spend on the Archon is very dependent on what he is running with, but even more so by the size of the list. Unless its something like 2500pts I would avoid all the expensive combos (like the Huskblade), just stick to Shadowfield, Agoniser and Drugs as your top level combo. I would never recommend dropping too many points into a T3 character, its just too easy to lose it all from a single shot/attack.

I wouldn't call Incubi + Archon the defining unit for Dark Eldar, certainly they hit like a truck and Marines everywhere run and hide from them, but Raiders and Ravagers are more the instantly definable units people associate with Dark Eldar. Tbh I think Incubi are more effective with Haemonculi than they are with an Archon now. The only thing the Archon can bring them is assault grenades, otherwise he is just another bunch of power weapon attacks (which they already have plenty of). A Haemonculi can keep them alive longer, which is the only potential issue with them. Once they hit combat and get a second pain token they just start rolling through Marine units. With FNP they can happily assault into cover against Marines which aren't totally loaded with power weapons anyway.

If you are taking an Archon my second HQ/s would always be a Haemonculi over a Succubus, you already have access to a combat character (if you choose to tool him up) so a cheap support one is going to be much more helpful and easier to fit in points wise.

To name a few sources of anti tank other than the ones you listed - Dark Lance Warriors, Dark Lance Trueborn, Wyches with Haywires, Grotesques, Harlies with Fusion Pistols + rending in assault, Scourges with Dark Lances or Haywire Launchers, Reavers with Heat Lances, Hellions with a strength buff (FC or from Drugs), Beasts (any of them) and of course the humble Raider. I'm assuming you missed Ravagers off the commonly spammed list.

Also does Mayls count as an Archon? I've TheoryHammered out a Tri Razorwing list which used her, plenty of Dark Lances and Warriors in a very gunline style list.

Well, DE cannot be played as Marines. Speed is your armor.
Therefore I think that a shooty list with counterstrike elements is the way to go.
This is how I will restructure my DE army.

Drudge Dreadnought:

I disagree with some of the basic tenets of "fluff" and interpretation.

An archon isn't a requirement of a classic kabal. You see them possibly portrayed in fiction, but rarely identified as an archon, and not with Incubi. Instead, you see "Dark Eldar leader" or "Commander type" and battle descriptions of bodyguards without specificity enough to narrow it down to Incubi, trueborn, etc. Shadowfields get described enough, but not named.

Second, I think a fair statement is that the new Dark Eldar codex presents some deviant from previously written novel fluff. Dark Eldar are ALWAYS on ships, which are presumably always raiders. They strike fast, usually during the night - there's not a lot of multi-book support for much of the current codex. Even the warriors on the ships aren't really called out as "wyches" or "warriors" or "trueborn" etc - just nightmare invaders.

Third, keep in mind that the fluff in novels isn't centered around building an army. You don't read about Dark Eldar armies engaging enemy armies on the field of battle. You read about them surprising a town, or ambushing someone, or a pirate raid - and their combat engagements revolve around those kind of actions, but still in the cotext of being fast raiders.

Fourth, also from the fluff - the commander types aren't found on the raids, they're back in the...mothership / support structures / etc.

Fifth, kabals and the elements comprising them are driven by money. You could call Dark Eldar soul-mercenaries. Everything is about money (souls). Whether you get the help of a haemonculi is dependent on your wealth. Scourges, the same. Hellions, the same. Trueborn are the elite of the warriors. Fluffwise, you're claiming that having several trueborn squads with min/max blasters for your elites doesn't make fluff sense. That's not true. Your army, and what it is comprised of...it literally dependent upon how successful you are, how many souls you harvest, how much pain and torture you can inflict on the inhabitants of the galaxy. There is quite a bit of correlation between the "competitiveness" of a Dark Eldar army and its fluff. An army comprised of no elite units is fluffy; it's advertising that it is not very financially successful. An army with three elite units of trueborn is also fluffy. It is advertising that it is a very successful kabal.

What would NOT be fluffy would be an army with three units of trueborn as elites that is not continually successful on the battlefield.

Sixth: Agreeing with Powerguy: Archon/Incubi are *not* the defining unit of Dark Eldar, the raider is; both in fluff, codices (DE and others), and novels.

There are some conflicting interest between codex and novel fluff though. Do you value one over the other? If your kabal is particularly successful, three units of trueborn are fine. But that also might mean that Lelith tags along; she chooses to fight with the best. And personally, I wouldn't put Lelith in a competitive army.

Finally, I think the diversity restrictions that you are imposing are self-created. There's nothing fluff-wise to suggest that raiding forces of Dark Eldar are diverse - in fact, previous codex and novel fluff suggests otherwise - that a raiding force is THEMED. Wych Cult. Kabal. Coven. Words we still use to describe DE builds today.

The whole point of my post is this: If you're looking for fluff reasons for an army, I believe the premises you're using are flawed. The restrictions you're creating aren't fluff-based, but rather a personal agenda - which is fine - but you shouldn't attribute it to canon. Personally, I play a Dark Eldar kabal. I'm fething Asdubael Vect, so my soldiers get the finest, I can afford the finest, and since I'm millenia old, I'm quite crafty - enough to know that for instance the new Venom design is superior on the field to a raider for a unit of warriors. I have dozens upon dozens of trueborn in my court, but venoms aren't being built fast enough from pillaged Eldar technology to let me dedicate more than three vehicles to them. Baron Sathonyx gets paid very well for his services, and I even keep a beast unit around for my personal entertainment.