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I wanted to play around with a different army and have asked a buddy of mine to loan me his Chaos army for a day. I haven't broken down and read anything about how other people play Chaos yet, and this is my first attempt at a Chaos army. 1,500 points, c&c, tear it up, and "why" does it suck?

1 Sorceror w/ mark of slaanesh, and lash - 125
7x Berserkers w/ rhino - 182
7x Berserkers w/ rhino - 182
7x Berserkers w/ rhino - 182
7x Berserkers w/ rhino - 182
5x Havocs w/ 4x missile launchers, rhino - 190
5x Havocs w/ 4x missile launchers, rhino - 190
5x Havocs w/ 4x missile launchers, rhino - 190

1423 and I'm digging to find a use for 77 points. Upgrades I think is all I can do at this point. The Havocs would not be deployed in their rhinos. Their rhinos would be deployed empty and used as mobile cover. I have only played Dark Eldar for years, so I'm used to things getting shot down fast. I was sadly disappointed in "all" of the upgrade options and costs for Chaos.

Havocs are expensive but if you like them, go for it. Your biggest issue with this list is easily going to be land raiders. Drop a havoc squad, get fists or power weps for all the skull champs, and use the remaining points on combi-meltas.

All 'Zerkers isn't going to give you an "all-comers" list. You have no reliable anti heavy armor.

I'd mix it up a bit. Use one squad of 'Zerkers (Champ + Fist in Rhino w/ Armor), one squad of CSM (Melta, Melta, Combi-Melta, PF, IoCG in Rhino) and one squad of Plague Marines (Champ, PF, Plasma, Plasma, Rhino). IF, you want to mix it up. The best Codex options are Plague Marines, followed by regular CSM squads. But 'Zerkers are very killy against the right units, so they can be fun to have around.

Chaos has great heavy support choices (Obliterators are very good, Possessed Vindicators are strong, and even Defilers can be solid in some matchups) but Havocs aren't among them.

Sorcerer w/ MoS + Lash is a solid choice. If you find yourself with a few extra points, you can upgrade him to a winged Daemon Prince w/ MoS + Lash, and he'll be much, much better for only 20 more points.

You made one list and you already can see the pain by CSM players, somewhat answering your first question... why does Chaos suck? Quick answer... Morale, cost, and subpar equipment (no PotMS on the LR for example).

At the end of the day, you will soon learn there is no real HQ like a Prince HQ for Chaos. One Sorc, even in a Rhino, is a target that can be easily removed. You also need 2 HQs for redundancy sake, because they /will/ draw alot of fire. Lucky for you, this is where it really doesn't matter on what Mark you take!

You took Lash, but besides a bunch of Str 4 Frags, you have nothing to make use of it. You use Lash for pie plates and blast markers. Your options for that are making your havocs /super/ expensive, Oblits, Vindicators, Defilers with Battle Cannons. If anything, get Havoc Launchers for your Havoc Rhinos and add in on the fun.

Speaking of heavys, Havocs seem pretty cool/decent... till they get shot. They do not have 'ATSKNF'* and will quickly run off the table if you fail that morale check. Your only option is to give them a Icon of Chaos Glory and hope the re-roll helps. Oh yeah, since it is wargear, you can lose that option. This is the problem for every unit in Chaos besides the cult troops. Don't you feel better when IG have better morale options than your chaos marines?

One of the neat, little things of Chaos is the weapon upgrades on the Rhinos and such. No one shot HK missile here! You can put Combi-Meltas on your Rhinos to actually suppliment your lack of AT, and Havoc Launchers do a great job of putting templates on hoards and adding markers for Lash. Do not under use this small gift from Gav, as it is one of the few.

Yeah, you need champs and power fists for your Zerkers, otherwise they are boned when they run into somethat that ignores Str 4, non-power weapon attacks. Enjoy that extra 40pts per squad!

Still, as bitter as Chaos has made me, that codex will soon become the Chaose Renagades Codex and a hopefully real Chaos Marine Codex will be released with 6th Ed next year.

Sorry if I am a buzzkill, but the Codex is very depressing to me compaired to the IG codex. Still, try to enjoy it and have some fun!

Almost forgot! * And They Shall Know No Fear.

The codex is still plenty competative. So we don't hate atsknf, we have Ld10, which is better than marine players can say...
We have many of the best troops in the game, and lash is not just for blast templates. moving people out of cover, off objectives, and into *hey look berzerkers* assault ranges.

Thank you for all of the feedback. I think I see why my buddy was laughing at my list now. I'll make some changes to the list and post back here.

I'll probably stick with one HQ since it's only a 1500 point game, and change him over to a Demon Prince. Probably die quick, but I'll try and hide him until it becomes useful.

The berserkers, I'll probably end up dropping at least one squad, maybe 2, upgrading to some skull champs w/ pf on the remaining units.

The havocs, I really liked the idea of 4 S8 48" range shots, and dropped a defiler to get a 3rd squad. I'll probably change one squad over to a defiler again for the battle cannon and b/c it's cheaper, free up some points and I may add a body or 2 to the other havoc squads, along with changing out 1 or 2 of the missile launchers to lascannons.

Depending on points I have left etc, I'll try and stick a plague marine squad or a csm squad kitted like suggested above.

Points depending, I'll upgrade the rhinos where I'm able and see what that looks like.

Thanks again for the feedback.