Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Still getting used to the fifth edition rules here, but I've noticed that a lot of people run scatter lasers on their various heavy weapon options. Wave serpents, war walkers, vypers and even guardian squads. I'm wondering if I have missed a major upside to the scatter laser over the shuriken cannon, but one extra shot for 10 to 20 points more doesn't seem worth it to me. They both have the strength 6. Most of those units aren't going to be three feet away from what they are shooting with a clear line of sight, and the cannons have one better AP even. I'm curious why the choice of one over the other?

For the extra range and extra shot, it may only be one shot, but it's another S6 shot. Also the 36" range helps, you can hit them (and hit them hard) where they can't hit you back as hard.

I spose another reason is that eldar are very fragile, so you gotta do the most damage you can as soon as possible

24" is inside charge range for nearly everything that wants to charge these days. 36" is not.

I also think that it comes down to range for the most part. A wave serpent with an extra 12 inches of range can stay out of multimelta/psycannon range for example.

Where I agree that scatter lasers are not as worth it is on war walkers. In my mind, warwalkers will be outflanking. When outflanking, the extra range is not as critical, but the cost saved is pretty big. For Warwalkers starting on the table the range is more worth it, but I dont like warwalkers used in that fashion seeing as they are very slow compared to the rest of a typical eldar force.

Range is better, more shots is better.

Sometimes it makes more sense pointwise in an army to take the Shuriken Cannon though, I use it from time to time.

Whats the difference between a target that is in-range and out of range? Less than 1 inch.

Something which is very easy to overlook with Eldar is the effect the position of the turret mounting has on your range. A Serpent (and to a slightly lesser extent the Falcon) is a very long vehicle with the turret in the rear, which means facing straight ahead you are 'wasting' 3-4" of range. 'Wasting' in the sense that the distance the unit you are shooting at has to move to hit you in return isn't the distance you can hit them at. With a Shuriken Cannon this takes you down to around 20" to be hit back, which is within assault range of any unit coming out of an open topped or assault based vehicle (even if they don't have fleet), units in closed top vehicles with Fleet (right on the edge but its possible) as well as any cavalry/beast type unit. Its also quite likely to be in range of melta units using firepoints while moving 6" (its 18" range but that's not much room for error with your positioning), is easily within range if they disembark (not that short range melta matters for a Serpent but it really hurts everything else) and can be hit by a huge range of nasty 24" range weapons ranging from Psycannons to Multimeltas.

36" range on the other hand drops to around 32", which is still well outside of assault range for even the fastest units around, will dodge 24" range shooting unless they can move fast and fire and completely ignores anything with 12" range (including mech units which move, disembark and fire).

The extra shot makes the Scatter Laser's damage output much better than the Cannon. AP5 vs AP6 makes no difference 99% of the time, against 4+ or better (which is the vast majority of units) they both do the same thing (i.e nothing). Against a decent opponent you will never catch anything with a 5+ save or worse out of cover and even a Scatter Laser against Guardsmen or Guardians in the open will do plenty of damage. Perhaps more importantly the extra shot makes the Scatter much better against vehicles, which are what you tend to be shooting for half the game at least.

In short the flexibility and increased damage output of the Scatter Laser is well worth the upgrade. The only time I take Cannons is as underslung weapons (because its the cheapest way to add more S6 shooting) or if I'm playing a lower point game and really need to save some points. Even then I'll usually only take them on the likes of Fire Dragon Serpents (which are much more likely to die).

i usually use double shuriken cannons on serpents, to minimize there point cost (i know, 1 shuriken cannon is cheaper), since my DA anyway wants to be within 18". then I get 6 str 6 shots extra for 20 Pts

I always go for shuriken cannons on my serpents, I know its down to the rolls of the dice but I always seem to have more luck with them than scatter lasers.

Both weapons have their uses though, cannons are cheap but scatters have that extra bit of range and the extra shot.

Personally I like the scatter laser over the shuriken cannon, but I like having the shuriken cannon on things in my army that are going to be getting up close and personal with my opponent, like my wraithlord.

For me the point is mainly the number of shots. With BS 3 the additional shots pay off over a number of turns. Against T3 or T4 the roll to wound is not really the problem, but with BS 3 you will lose some shots. So in the end on War Walkers the scatter laser is the better choice imo.

The extra points really start adding up if you are buying a bunch of scatter lasers. I always see what else I can add and weigh the difference to see if it is worth it. Mostly I find shurikans the better choice.

Powerguy wrote:Something which is very easy to overlook with Eldar is the effect the position of the turret mounting has on your range. A Serpent (and to a slightly lesser extent the Falcon) is a very long vehicle with the turret in the rear, which means facing straight ahead you are 'wasting' 3-4" of range. 'Wasting' in the sense that the distance the unit you are shooting at has to move to hit you in return isn't the distance you can hit them at. With a Shuriken Cannon this takes you down to around 20" to be hit back, which is within assault range of any unit coming out of an open topped or assault based vehicle (even if they don't have fleet), units in closed top vehicles with Fleet (right on the edge but its possible) as well as any cavalry/beast type unit. Its also quite likely to be in range of melta units using firepoints while moving 6" (its 18" range but that's not much room for error with your positioning), is easily within range if they disembark (not that short range melta matters for a Serpent but it really hurts everything else) and can be hit by a huge range of nasty 24" range weapons ranging from Psycannons to Multimeltas.

36" range on the other hand drops to around 32", which is still well outside of assault range for even the fastest units around, will dodge 24" range shooting unless they can move fast and fire and completely ignores anything with 12" range (including mech units which move, disembark and fire).

The extra shot makes the Scatter Laser's damage output much better than the Cannon. AP5 vs AP6 makes no difference 99% of the time, against 4+ or better (which is the vast majority of units) they both do the same thing (i.e nothing). Against a decent opponent you will never catch anything with a 5+ save or worse out of cover and even a Scatter Laser against Guardsmen or Guardians in the open will do plenty of damage. Perhaps more importantly the extra shot makes the Scatter much better against vehicles, which are what you tend to be shooting for half the game at least.

In short the flexibility and increased damage output of the Scatter Laser is well worth the upgrade. The only time I take Cannons is as underslung weapons (because its the cheapest way to add more S6 shooting) or if I'm playing a lower point game and really need to save some points. Even then I'll usually only take them on the likes of Fire Dragon Serpents (which are much more likely to die).

This is an excellent explanation of why 24" range isn't enough on eldar vehicles. I would only use shuriken cannons on fire dragon serpents, and even there I would upgrade to scatter lasers as one of the first things if I freed up some points. Against a lot of armies you want to stand off a bit.