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The rules for skimmers say no model maybe underneath the skimmer. As the Vendetta is so large are wings actually classed as the hull or just ignored? I know that's another question, but as the Vendetta is so large there's plenty of room to have model underneath the wings, but going on RaW nothing can do underneath.

Also can the tail hang off the edge of the table?

I read on here there was a FAQ for the above for the Throne of Skulls tournament but I couldn't find anything. A

Is there any answers? Is the hull/fueslage just used for model not underneath or the wings included as well? I seriously hope not as there's a serious boning for the Vendetta and other skimmers about the same size too.

No, the ruels for skimmers state they may not end THEIR move over other models.

The wings are definitely not decorative items, and are "hul".

No part of the model, as defined by the ACTUAL model, may be off the table. ToS got this entirely wrong for one US tournament, and said you only look at the base.

For the valkyrie, you need to bend a couple rules and look at it in context of the model. It came out after 5th edition, so there are some rules that don't quite mesh.

This is how I play it. Unless I state otherwise, everything is my interpretation of RAW. Try and keep up:

1)Everything on the valkyrie is hull. Simple test- if I blow off that part, will it still function fine? The wings, tail, and cockpit are vital parts of the vehicle and constitute a major part of the model.

2)Consequently, you can shoot at my entire model. Bully for you!

3) Things can be under the wings. The massive amount of base makes up for the discrepancies between RAW and this. With lower models, it makes sense that nothing can be under them, but the valk is so tall that figuring out who is under, who walked under it, and who isn't near it would take up so much time it would be prohibitive. It will be cleared up in 6th, I am sure. Also, disembarking is measured to the base, so if you couldn't be under it you would have potential problems disembarking.

4)Make terrain tests to the base of the valk. Again, not RAW but much more convenient and how most people play.

5)Everything must be over the table. That is RAW.

RAW, you can't stop with anybody under the wings and you test to the hull for terrain(if it is over the terrain you test). Again, the rules were written before the model came out, so it clashes with it and common sense a bit here. Once flier rules are out, it will be much simpler to play with our beloved valks.

-cgmckenzie

EDIT- reworded my RAW paragraph there to respond to nos and added my sig.

CGM - again, no this is not correct.

Reread the rules for skimmers and moving - they must not end THEIr move over other models, however nothing prevents other models ending their move UNDER them.

Good catch, I'll reword that.

-cgmckenzie

cgmckenzie wrote:1)Everything on the valkyrie is hull. Simple test- if I blow off that part, will it still function fine? The wings, tail, and cockpit are vital parts of the vehicle and constitute a major part of the model.

I think that is fair enough.

3) Things can be under the wings. The massive amount of base makes up for the discrepancies between RAW and this. With lower models, it makes sense that nothing can be under them, but the valk is so tall that figuring out who is under, who walked under it, and who isn't near it would take up so much time it would be prohibitive. It will be cleared up in 6th, I am sure. Also, disembarking is measured to the base, so if you couldn't be under it you would have potential problems disembarking.

Very good point about disembarking.

4)Make terrain tests to the base of the valk. Again, not RAW but much more convenient and how most people play.

That's how I play it ATM.

5)Everything must be over the table. That is RAW.

That makes sense.

nosferatu1001 wrote:CGM - again, no this is not correct.

Reread the rules for skimmers and moving - they must not end THEIr move over other models, however nothing prevents other models ending their move UNDER them.

Extremely good point. Move skimmer move dudes underneath it, also dudes cannot disembark as would be under the wings as previously mentioned above.

These guys have already nailed it.

As an aside, how would you treat the sail on Dark Eldar Raiders? Hull also for TLOS purposes?

I would think so. Destroy the sails and it won't be moving any more, so that would be indicative of hull.

I don't care if the sails actually have anything to do with propulsion, space pirates is to tantalizing to pass up.

-cgmckenzie

cgmckenzie wrote:I would think so. Destroy the sails and it won't be moving any more, so that would be indicative of hull.

I don't care if the sails actually have anything to do with propulsion, space pirates is to tantalizing to pass up.

-cgmckenzie

I figured they were decorative until I applied the "let's screw the Vendetta/Valk" wings+tail=hull argument to it.

That's the thing, I never saw it as 'screwing' the vendetta/valk owners for including the wings as shootable surface. 99% of the time, when somebody is in range to shoot my wings, they can also shoot the passenger compartment, aka the 'hull box'.

I always saw them as hull anyway, simply because they are such a large part of the model that was clearly not decorative.

-cgmckenzie

cgmckenzie wrote:That's the thing, I never saw it as 'screwing' the vendetta/valk owners for including the wings as shootable surface. 99% of the time, when somebody is in range to shoot my wings, they can also shoot the passenger compartment, aka the 'hull box'.

I always saw them as hull anyway, simply because they are such a large part of the model that was clearly not decorative.

-cgmckenzie

Ahh, I was referring to the footprint for terrain. Range is less of an issue, you're right.

cgmckenzie wrote:That's the thing, I never saw it as 'screwing' the vendetta/valk owners for including the wings as shootable surface. 99% of the time, when somebody is in range to shoot my wings, they can also shoot the passenger compartment, aka the 'hull box'.

I always saw them as hull anyway, simply because they are such a large part of the model that was clearly not decorative.

-cgmckenzie

A BA player and I had a slight debate about this after I hit his Stormraven with three Manticore Templates. All three went to the wings and ailerons. I had to convince him that planes can't fly without wings. With some coaxing it finally dawned on him that what I was saying makes sense. I bet it was more a of a desperate plea to allow his gunship to survive, not actually be TFG. It of course exploded.