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Hi Dakka,

My group is made up of 40k players who have just started Fantasy. We are still getting used to the rules and I want to make sure we are playing correctly.

I play Ogres and was against my friends Lizards at 1500 points.

I have a Tyrant running in a 6 Ogre unit containing 3 Ironguts, butcher and BsB. A small powerful unit.

In our last game I was charged by his Temple Guard Slann unit. I challenged the Slann and of course he declined and moved to the back of the unit. He then cast lore of life spell that gave them +2 toughness and proceeded to destroy my Ogre unit causing so many wounds I fled the combat.

This fight was so one sided that I was wondering if we played it correctly.

Q. Can a wizard cast spells even if he refused a challenge?

If so then what can an Ogre army do against a magic heavy lizard army? I only have 1 butcher to dispel and if I cast any gut magic he simply dispels it.

Gut magic seems strong on paper, but I have found it to be VERY difficult to make even one spell stick. The opponent can dispel as you cast and then dispel it in their own magic phase the next turn. In return I have one lvl 2 dispel available to me and the lvl 6 spells in the new lores are game breakers. If my opponent casts one of these I am doomed.

Am I just bad at the game? Or is this a common issue with Ogres?

I'm afraid you've run into the Life Slaan. Quite possibly one of the most obnoxiously annoying critters in the entire game. I don't have my rulebook on hand, but it does seem you played correctly.

The level 6 spells are pretty devastating, to be sure, and many have casting values that are a joke. Lore of Life is commonly considered one of the worst offenders since it is on a model basis, allows no saves of any kind and thus ignores even magic resistance.

Thanks for the reply. It did seem we were playing correctly. I just hoped we were not. lol.

On top of the amazing spells that life gives, it seemed over the top to allow his temple guard to come back to life with every life spell that had been successfully cast.

I really had no chance, even with my mini-deathstar Ogre unit.

Thanks again for the conformation.

Daemon_Dave wrote:
On top of the amazing spells that life gives, it seemed over the top to allow his temple guard to come back to life with every life spell that had been successfully cast.

If it seemed over the top, that's because it is. The Lore Attribute can only give back wounds to models that are alive. Regrowth can revive dead ones, however.

Ah yes, AlmightyWalrus does raise an important distinction. The Lore Attribute can't revive dead models, it can only restore wounds to living multi-wound creatures like the Slann or perhaps a Stegadon or Kroxigor. If he wants to actually get models back that's a separate spell.

Ahh ok. Well at least that is some small consolation. We have been trying to digest all the WHFB rules in a weekend. So we probably missed a few points like that.

Thanks guys

Why did you challenge the slann out of interest?

Tiarna Fuilteach wrote:Why did you challenge the slann out of interest?

In the hope that he would stupidly accept and allow me to kill him. Of course he didn't. I also assumed that a wizard at the back rank wouldn't be able to cast anything.... oh how wrong I was.

Yea TLOS makes Slaan not care where they stand.

What was a slaan doing in the front rank in the first place?
And three things you could do to help against Dwellers (Lore of Life #6), bring a slaughtermaster (once you start playing at a pts lvl where its possible), bring a scroll, and don't put all your characters in one unit (I know they're mostly S5 but one 6 and you die).

They don't have to be in the first rank to be challenged. Heck, if they were in the first rank there's no reason to challenge them at all, just direct the attacks their way!

But I believe that Slaan get to ignore the normal rules (part of a theme I'd say...) for deployment and always go in the second rank of Temple Guard. Which makes sense, given the job of Temple Guard

The best thing to do, is bump the points up to 2000 or even a bit more.

The Slaan is VERY good for his points, and in smaller games, you can't afford decent leadership and magic defense.

At 1800, you can run a very strong ogre star, that specialized in killing temple guard.

Tyrant with really hard to kill me gear (and stubborn crown)
Bruiser (BSB with really hard to kill me gear)
Butcher (dispel scroll and 5+ ward)
16 Iron Guts, with full command and Rune Maw banner (sends dwellers to other targets).
3 Bulls
3 Bulls

Should be ~1800.
You should kill something like ~30 temple guard on the charge. (25 without impact hits). (depending on placement of heroes, you can expect to take ~6 wounds or less in return).

The only spell you need to dispel is Flesh to Stone. Anything else, you don't care about.

At some point, your lizardman buddy might get tired of you beating his face in, and try other tactics.

-Matt

Steam - i thought they had to be in the fighting rank to be eligible to be challenged? Possibly remembering 7th....

You can also equip the Rune Maw Magic Banner with your standard bearer in the deathstar. This allows you to redirect spells like dwellers and pit of shades to a friendly unit within 6" on a 2+ even if cast with irresistible force, be sure to have some gnobs around


Edit: ah didn´t see that matt has already considered rune maw banner, ignore me :(

nosferatu1001 wrote:Steam - i thought they had to be in the fighting rank to be eligible to be challenged? Possibly remembering 7th....

Remembering 7th it seems.

Page 102:
If your opponent has issued a challenge, you can now accept it with one of your characters or champions whose unit is in base contact with the unit containing the issuer of the challenge. Note that a character does not have to be in base contact with an enemy to accept or issue a challenge, just part of a unit that is.

It's also worth noting, however, that when you issue a challenge you don't call out a model. It's not "My Warlord challenges your Ork Shaman", it's just "My warlord issues a challenge" (along with a suitable 'Come die quick quick green thing' or what have you). The opponent gets to choose who accepts. This is extremely important to remember for units with multiple characters or champions (like Rat Ogre units with a Master Bred Rat Ogre, a Master Moulder and a Warlord on a Bonebreaker...) So the OP may have issued the challenge, but the Lizard player could have just accepted with the TG unit champion.

Aye and TG champs have the annoying habit to come back to life.

Small correction: Life Slaan have an annoying habit of bringing TG champions back to life. The TG champ itself has nothing to do with it.

Thanks for the the replies.

I just wanted to say that the problem was not dwellers (although I understand that dwellers could kill my whole army is allowed to be cast). The problem was the slann casting a Flesh to Stone and giving +2 toughness to the temple guard. This was without him getting throne of vines off! Toughness 6 temple guard make my ogres have a bad day.

At the current points level my small deathstar of 3 Ironguts, Battle Standard, Tyrant and Butcher are mostly wounding on sixes. Even with impact hits, attacks and stomps I did nothing but bounce off. He did 7 wounds and I fled. With so many points in that one unit the rest of my army was easy meat to his other 2 large Saurus units and skroxs units.

Upping the points allowance seems to be one way to cope with this problem. I do agree that the life slann is crazy at this points level.

@HawaiiMatt - You seem to know exactly what im talking about. Thanks for the advice

Thanks again to everyone who took the time to comment.