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I attended Wargamescon this year and noticed a trend that I thought was specific to my local area: everyone hates Grey Knights, in any form. This extends to Blood Angels, Wolves, and IG as well.

What I mean by this is that almost every opponent I faced immediately groaned (and some scoffed with a buddy) when they realized I was playing Grey Knights. There is such a stigma surrounding GKs right now that even a suboptimal list like mine puts my opponent in a hostile mood at the start of the game. I got to hear multiple complaints about Purifiers, which I wholly understand.

My 2000 point list: Draigo, 5 Paladins, 2x10 Terminators with Thawn, and 3 Dreadnoughts. I struggle with Seize, do fairly well with C&C (thanks to outflank), and always win KPs. Wargamescon actually has a primary and secondary objective (drawn from Seize, C&C, and Annihilation) and an odd Tertiary objective (such as killing enemy HQs, getting in the enemy's deployment zone, etc.). Long story short, I'm not going to win the whole thing. In fact, I would love to face my own list with one of my power lists.

How do you all feel? In my opinion, everyone should play what they want and stop complaining about what everyone else is fielding. I actually spoke with a Mech IG player who literally told me he was tired of losing to Mech IG so he built his own! Additionally, realize what specific builds you hate versus an entire codex. For example, I can't stand Thunderwolves! I'm cool with the rest of the Wolves though.

Happens every time there is a new codex out.

"OH NOES, SQUADRONED TANKS AND VENDETTAS!?! HOW WILL WE LIVE?!"

"OH NOES, DEEPSTRIKING LAND RAIDERS AND STORMRAVENS?!?! MEPHISTON!?!? HOW WILL WE LIVE?!"

"OH NOES, S8 AUTOCANNONS? FORCE WEAPONS?! HOW WILL WE LIVE?!?!"

At the end of the day, people then realize finally that it's just another marine codex, or just another T3 5+ save codex. This happens about the time the next codex comes out, in which case the cycle repeats.

I play what turns out to be a pretty soft IG list, and I get lumped in with the Leaf Blower players fairly often. This ranges from little comments ("Oh god, an IG player.") to people insisting on bringing the toughest armies that they can against me (the last guy that I played admitted that, having actually seen my army, he felt bad for bringing the list that he did in our game). The side effect of this? Now I'm considering playing a Leaf Blower list, just so I can actually put up a fight against the builds that people want to bring against me.

SkaerKrow wrote:I play what turns out to be a pretty soft IG list, and I get lumped in with the Leaf Blower players fairly often. This ranges from little comments ("Oh god, an IG player.") to people insisting on bringing the toughest armies that they can against me (the last guy that I played admitted that, having actually seen my army, he felt bad for bringing the list that he did in our game). The side effect of this? Now I'm considering playing a Leaf Blower list, just so I can actually put up a fight against the builds that people want to bring against me.

I have a similar problem, I play an IG list with 2-3 Chimeras in it, and I have had people refer to it as a leaf blower list. I was talking to someone I play with often about my plans for my 2000 pt list and mentioned having a few chimeras in it, and he immediately said, " Oh, so you're making a leaf blower list?" It annoys me how everyone thinks of any IG list that employs chimeras as a leaf blower list.

I miss 2nd ed., when everything was so irretrievable broken that no-one was concerned about competitive balance.

I jest, of course. But I do think that there is a more competitive nature to the community these days. This, in itself, is not a bad thing, although it is something that keeps my personal group of players quite small. The problem comes when a lot of unimaginative, angry players start getting hostile at the perceived powerful armies and their players. People who picked their armies because they liked the look, or the fluff, get accused of being band-wagoneers and WAAC players. It's sad, really. Non-competitive players who don't build for victory but rather for fluff get victimised by scrubs who want to win every game they play but just aren't very good at the game. Much easier to say 'oh, you're army is overpowered' or 'mine is underpowered' that just to say 'I tried my best to win, and I lost.'

Personally, I play to tell a story. Victory is icing on the cake, but the cake is delicious on it's own. Unless, of course, one bitter chef is pouring vinegar into it to spite the other.

Psssh you want to see broken, let me bring out my IA10 Achilles Spearhead. 3 LR Achilles, 3 Regular LR and some fun special rules.

Bwahahahaha

I'm in the same position with many of the not-so-regulars in my community. I started Grey Knights because I like the models and the background, so I run a primarily fluffy list. It's just a Librarian, Brother Captain, 5 Paladins, 10 Terminators, a Land Raider Crusader, 2x5 Strike Squads, 1 squad of Interceptors, and two Dreadnoughts, neither or which are equipped with Psyrifles. Obviously I don't use ALL of those units, I'll mix and match, but I never run Purifiers, or psyriflemen, so I don't think it's that good a list even on the best of days. I regularly play people in friendlies now, and I often get the same thing. It's irritating, and rude quite frankly.

Wargames con sounds more and more like the type of event I'd like to avoid from what we're hearing, lots of uber-competitiveness in a way the game was never desinged for with attendant egos and the like.

That said, GK much of the reason GK's became quickly disliked was twofold. First was the leaked playtest, where it was significantly more broken than it is currently (dreadknights were S7T7 with a 2+/4++ for the same cost they are now, henchmen could have unlimited numbers of meltaguns, NFW staves gave an always on 2++, etc) and that impression stuck, and secondly because it's an easy army to hop on. You need very few models, so it's easy to have everybody start a GK army. It also doesn't help that there are some rather dubious costings on many things such as unstunnable rhinos at only a 5pt price increase, 5pts to upgrade Rifleman dreads to S8 (is anyone ever *not* going to take that?) etc.

That said, my personal experience with the army certainly hasn't reflected the way the OP's has, most GK armies I've seen in person have been far from power lists, and usually ridiculously low on model count and thus easily destroyed.

But yeah, armies that attract bandwagons always get poor responses.

I am at the point where I would like to start a Grey Knights army because I like the models and the idea behind them, but I keep putting it off because you instantly get labeled a power gamer or that guy.

Melchiour wrote:I am at the point where I would like to start a Grey Knights armor because I like the models and the idea behind them, but I keep putting it off because you instantly get labeled a power gamer or that guy.

Wait until the next marine army comes out, then most of the hate will be focused on them!

You wanna see OP? Wait till I bring my CRASSUS ARMOURED ASSAULT TRANSPORT!

Wolf 11x wrote:
My 2000 point list: Draigo, 5 Paladins, 2x10 Terminators with Thawn, and 3 Dreadnoughts.

Wolf 11x wrote:
My 2000 point list: Draigo, 5 Paladins, 2x10 Terminators with Thawn, and 3 Dreadnoughts.

Wolf 11x wrote:
My 2000 point list: Draigo, 5 Paladins, 2x10 Terminators with Thawn, and 3 Dreadnoughts.

Wolf 11x wrote:
My 2000 point list: Draigo, 5 Paladins, 2x10 Terminators with Thawn, and 3 Dreadnoughts.

That sounds like a really soft list there, cuzz.

Naht. Seriously that doesn't sound like a "fun" list at all. Lemme guess, Psyriflemen Dreads, wound allocation abusing Paladins?

Yeah, this is pretty common. Everyone groans at the newest Codices. And Tyranids.

Jimsolo wrote:Yeah, this is pretty common. Everyone groans at the newest Codices. And Tyranids.

People really groan at tyranids?

Thats my main army, have had no complaints yet, in fact most people get excited when I say I have Nids.

General Seric wrote:

Melchiour wrote:I am at the point where I would like to start a Grey Knights armor because I like the models and the idea behind them, but I keep putting it off because you instantly get labeled a power gamer or that guy.

Wait until the next marine army comes out, then most of the hate will be focused on them!

I used tot hink that but people are still antsy about SW and there have been quite a few codci between them and the newest release...

Melchiour wrote:I am at the point where I would like to start a Grey Knights army because I like the models and the idea behind them, but I keep putting it off because you instantly get labeled a power gamer or that guy.

Wait a minute,i started a GK army as i love the (sensible)fluff and the mini's.I'm yet to play a 40k game as im a gaming noob(sorry) and now i will have to put up with being labelled a power gamer or that f'ing guy.I don't really care if i get my ass handed to me i just want to play fun competetive games with great looking mini's.Oh well.

I hate the Grey Knights, but only fluff-wise. They're really nice as an army. Also, VENDETTA SQUADS FTW!!!!

It's very frustrating. I've been a Grey Knight player for years - my whole army is metal or Resin. Now people give me the stink eye. Oh, sure, it's fine when my army is utter crap - as soon as it has some fire power behind it you want nothing to do with me.

Jimsolo wrote:Yeah, this is pretty common. Everyone groans at the newest Codices. And Tyranids.

Err, it is 2011 bud. It's not 4th edition any more.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Vladsimpaler wrote:That sounds like a really soft list there, cuzz.

Naht. Seriously that doesn't sound like a "fun" list at all. Lemme guess, Psyriflemen Dreads, wound allocation abusing Paladins?

Are you joking?
If you think that is a "hard" list, NEVER GO TO A TOURNAMENT. Remain in your basement, keep the indiscriminate GK rage alive.

No bones about it. The grey knights are very broken and no one likes it. Luckily I sold off my Daemonhunters army right *before* the new codex came out so don't have to worry about having any useless models on my shelf at this point. I will *not* play chaos against the grey knights anymore and that was the ultimate fluff battle right there.

I think the Daemonhunters incarnation was the best. Grey knights were extra potent against daemons, but not stupidly so. Daemons got some bonuses like beasts and lesser daemons being "without end" when facing grey knights. This kept the battles interesting and intense. Grey knights were very good against chaos, but not overly good against anyone else. Now GKs are just stupid and ridiculous to face no matter who their opponent is. I mean come on, terminators as standard troops choices?? Puh-lease!

Grey knights have now come full circle:
Started way over priced so in any fight against forces other than chaos they were really not very useful or good.
Moved into more of a balanced point to powers cost level with them getting bonuses against chaos, but still able to fight a pretty standard battle against other opponents.
Now they are just stupid against chaos and as the latest and greatest codex are stupidly capable against just about any force on the table.

I really liked them in the middle Daemonhunters phase and enjoyed playing and facing off against the army immensely whether fighting against chaos or not. They were too niche at the beginning and now the list is just so cheesy I couldn't bring myself to play them even if I hadn't sold off my daemonhunters already.

I am waiting for the new necron book and hoping it isn't the ludicrous travesty that the GK book is or I won't be building the necron army I was hoping to make.

I think it might help if GW had a consistent team outlook on codex books that did *anything* to control the power levels of new books and reign in the insanities of some people making those new books.

Skriker

Grey Knights aren't really broken. Grey Knights aren't even good against chaos.

Daemons all have eternal warrior and collar of khorne hurts GK so hard it isn't funny. Sure, the grey knight strike squad "feth you area" sucks for summoned daemons but that's about it.

It's good that you sold your GK though. Maybe someone that actually thinks about the game is playing them happily now.

daedalus wrote:Happens every time there is a new codex out.

"OH NOES, SQUADRONED TANKS AND VENDETTAS!?! HOW WILL WE LIVE?!"

"OH NOES, DEEPSTRIKING LAND RAIDERS AND STORMRAVENS?!?! MEPHISTON!?!? HOW WILL WE LIVE?!"

"OH NOES, S8 AUTOCANNONS? FORCE WEAPONS?! HOW WILL WE LIVE?!?!"

At the end of the day, people then realize finally that it's just another marine codex, or just another T3 5+ save codex. This happens about the time the next codex comes out, in which case the cycle repeats.

That is exactly what my area was like, thats a major reason why i stopped going because people didn't like my razor spam and my chapter fluff.

Skriker wrote:No bones about it. The grey knights are very broken and no one likes it.

No.

Skriker wrote:Luckily I sold off my Daemonhunters army right *before* the new codex came out so don't have to worry about having any useless models on my shelf at this point.

Ah, of course. Perfectly logical. Why wait and see what the codex is actually like when you can knee jerk panic, assume that the sky is falling, and sell all your stuff. At least someone else out there got a neat GK army out of it, probably someone a bit more rational than yourself.

Skriker wrote:I will *not* play chaos against the grey knights anymore and that was the ultimate fluff battle right there.

Well, that is just stupid.

Skriker wrote:I think the Daemonhunters incarnation was the best. Grey knights were extra potent against daemons, but not stupidly so. Daemons got some bonuses like beasts and lesser daemons being "without end" when facing grey knights.

The "bonuses" were hamfisted.

Skriker wrote:This kept the battles interesting and intense.

There was nothing intense about walking backwards firing storm bolters and having small daemon units respawn in the back of the deployment zone.

Skriker wrote:Grey knights were very good against chaos, but not overly good against anyone else. Now GKs are just stupid and ridiculous to face no matter who their opponent is.

This is not true, but then again you think a 20 terminator 5 paladin draigo list is broken and unfun.

Skriker wrote:I mean come on, terminators as standard troops choices?? Puh-lease!

This is my favorite way that you are ACTIVELY WRONG. Terminators are THE standard unit of GK infantry, and have been since the GK were first invented. GK didn't even HAVE power armor back in the day.


Conclusion: You are a whining babby who is bad at 40k and never actually read the Grey Knights background.

Asherian Command wrote:

daedalus wrote:Happens every time there is a new codex out.

"OH NOES, SQUADRONED TANKS AND VENDETTAS!?! HOW WILL WE LIVE?!"

"OH NOES, DEEPSTRIKING LAND RAIDERS AND STORMRAVENS?!?! MEPHISTON!?!? HOW WILL WE LIVE?!"

"OH NOES, S8 AUTOCANNONS? FORCE WEAPONS?! HOW WILL WE LIVE?!?!"

At the end of the day, people then realize finally that it's just another marine codex, or just another T3 5+ save codex. This happens about the time the next codex comes out, in which case the cycle repeats.

That is exactly what my area was like, thats a major reason why i stopped going because people didn't like my razor spam and my chapter fluff.

Your chapter fluff is a touch odd...
And razor spam is just rude...

Asherian Command wrote:That is exactly what my area was like, thats a major reason why i stopped going because people didn't like my razor spam and my chapter fluff.

To be fair, most people everywhere hate your chapter fluff. Also, most people everywhere hate or at least find incredibly dull, razorspam. Seriously, razorspam is the most boring army out there.

I would just go with a fun list for anything :\

forruner_mercy wrote:I would just go with a fun list for anything :\

The only problem is where you make a fun list (like OP) and people you fight get mad and think its a power list (see thread)

ph34r wrote:

forruner_mercy wrote:I would just go with a fun list for anything :\

The only problem is where you make a fun list (like OP) and people you fight get mad and think its a power list (see thread)

Exactly. I just really like the Grey Knight Terminator models and have wanted to do an all-Terminator force for quite some time!

I was expecting my games to go something like:

Opponent: Oh, you have Grey Knights?
Me: Yeah, but I use all Terminators. I don't even have a Vindicare!
Opponent: Oh! Well then! Let's have a good game and good luck!

Reality:

Opponent: Oh, you have Grey Knights?
Me: Yeah, but I use all Terminators. I don't even have a Vindicare!
Opponent: Yeah, but they're still Grey Knights.

To be fair, the only game I've lost with my all terminator list was a 1000 point game that I mishaped 50% of my units to death on. Of course, I still play with the flee-shoot-flee tactics from C: DH, which were surprisingly effective at times. I have had a tie or two though. They're a strong codex. Definitely competitive. I won't try to argue otherwise.

I don't think they're more OP than Space Wolves or Blood Angels. I don't think either of those are necessarily OP. I'm not even sure I'd say IG is at this point. Sometimes I wonder if public perception is actually based upon real experience or internet pity parties. I'd also be interested to know what the percentage of people who play 4th ed dexes who claim cheese is contrasted against 5th ed dexes.

Honestly the only "bad" armies in my eyes at this point are Tyranids, Craftworld Eldar, Chaos Daemons, and Witch Hunters.

Witch Hunters still manages to do decently whenever they show up with a serious list at a tournament, but there isn't enough showing to make any real conclusion.

Eldar is alright with a mech army, and sometimes even foot, but apparently it has problems. I can't see Eldar massacring or winning tournaments overall.

Tyranids are kinda iffy. Some people swear they can be top tier, but I don't see them winning events.

Chaos Daemons just suck unless you have Khorne vs GK.

I think it's reasonable to discount Eldar and Tyranids as "you were the only viable army in 4th edition, quit whining".

Witch Hunters will get a new book soon and probably be competitive.

Chaos Daemons are just a huge mistake no matter how you look at them.


Oh, and Wolf11x, Vindicares aren't actually that good. Psyflemen are better.