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Would a squad targeted by this ability possibly get a cover save if they were perched in area terrain? It says the unit targeted suffers d6 str4 ap2 hits. But that's it.
I guess since it's not specifically a shooting attack that it wouldn't grant a cover save, but I was wondering if there was a more definite answer.

Yes, they would.

no, they wouldn't.

Yes they would. You get cover saves unless specified that you cannot

The are not defined as shots, they are just defined as hits. They don't take place in the shooting phase. Why would you say they would get a cover save?
A permissive ruleset lets you have a cover save if the conditions are appropriate for a cover save, but I don't see how it would.

Think of it this way. You assault a vehicle in the assault phase and it explodes, hitting a nearby unit in area terrain. Would they get a cover save even though this isn't the shooting phase and the explosion isn't a shooting attack?

GW's current trend seems to be if it causes wounds you get a cover save. Mind War, Doom of Malantai's leech essence ability and I'm sure there are many other examples.

Yep. As a rule you get cover saves except where specifically disallowed.

Dok wrote:The are not defined as shots, they are just defined as hits. They don't take place in the shooting phase. Why would you say they would get a cover save?
A permissive ruleset lets you have a cover save if the conditions are appropriate for a cover save, but I don't see how it would.

you are correct about it being a permissive ruleset, you are wrong, however, about needing specific permission to get a cover save(also that the Polymorphine hits are not "shots"). You have permission to take cover saves against wounds so long as the conditions are met(The wound was caused by a shot that went past an obstacle covering any part of the model, or the unit is inside of area terrain), you are only denied Cover saves by those things that specifically deny cover saves(Death or Glory, dangerous terrain, Template weapons, CC attacks, etc).

The Polymorphine hits have a ranged weapon Profile

Ok, thanks for clearing that up for me. I'm sure this would cause arguments during a game though as it seems confusing.
So re-reading the rule, if they unit was behind a low wall or barricade then they would not be allowed cover as it doesn't specify which direction the "hits" are coming from. And there is no way to avoid allowing cover saves in area terrain as the model is not placed until after the hits are resolved. Does that sound correct?

Yes that is correct.

There is only 1 time in which the callidus has a direction for where the hits come from and that is against vehicles, and even then she must be placed in the declared Arc(generally rear)

Kommissar Kel wrote:

Dok wrote:The are not defined as shots, they are just defined as hits. They don't take place in the shooting phase. Why would you say they would get a cover save?
A permissive ruleset lets you have a cover save if the conditions are appropriate for a cover save, but I don't see how it would.

you are correct about it being a permissive ruleset, you are wrong, however, about needing specific permission to get a cover save(also that the Polymorphine hits are not "shots"). You have permission to take cover saves against wounds so long as the conditions are met(The wound was caused by a shot that went past an obstacle covering any part of the model, or the unit is inside of area terrain), you are only denied Cover saves by those things that specifically deny cover saves(Death or Glory, dangerous terrain, Template weapons, CC attacks, etc).

The Polymorphine hits have a ranged weapon Profile

Please forgive me if this is considered a necro. It's the third thread I've posted in, is 3 months and 4 days old and did not give a warning when I hit "Submit".

"The wound was caused by a shot..."
"The Polymorphine hits have a ranged weapon Profile."

It most definitely was not caused by a shot, and I'm not sure where you're getting the ranged weapon profile, other than the AP?

Callidus has a shooting attack:
Neural Shredder: Range Template, Strength 8*, AP 1, Type Pistol.

(* Resolved against target's Leadership. A neural shredder cannot harm vehicles.) Not ST 4 and not AP 2.

...And a melee weapon: C'tan phase sword. Strength 4 Attacks 4.

The rule as written states D6 Strength 4 AP 2 hits. Now, if you want to argue that in spite of the attack not being caused by the Callidus' ranged weapon attack, that the victim should be allowed a cover save, I'm open to that argument, but I don't see how you can just assume it's a ranged weapon attack unless otherwise confirmed. The FAQ v1.1 doesn't say. But it does say:

Q: If a Callidus Assassin chooses a unit of vehicles as its target for its Polymorphine special rule what facing is hit? (p53)
A: You can choose which facing is hit, but the Callidus Assassin must then be placed within 3" of the unit, and in the arc of the facing that was hit.

So: a neural shredder cannot harm vehicles. Polymorphine attacks *can* be made against vehicles. Therefore it stands to reason that the ranged weapon, i.e. the neural shredder is not being used for the Polymorphine special rule. Unless you want to say that the special rule attack is made with some unknown third weapon that has not been revealed, it's made with the C'tan phase sword. Therefore, a CC attack. Ergo, no cover save.

parjlarsson wrote:

Kommissar Kel wrote:

Dok wrote:The are not defined as shots, they are just defined as hits. They don't take place in the shooting phase. Why would you say they would get a cover save?
A permissive ruleset lets you have a cover save if the conditions are appropriate for a cover save, but I don't see how it would.

you are correct about it being a permissive ruleset, you are wrong, however, about needing specific permission to get a cover save(also that the Polymorphine hits are not "shots"). You have permission to take cover saves against wounds so long as the conditions are met(The wound was caused by a shot that went past an obstacle covering any part of the model, or the unit is inside of area terrain), you are only denied Cover saves by those things that specifically deny cover saves(Death or Glory, dangerous terrain, Template weapons, CC attacks, etc).

The Polymorphine hits have a ranged weapon Profile

Please forgive me if this is considered a necro. It's the third thread I've posted in, is 3 months and 4 days old and did not give a warning when I hit "Submit".

"The wound was caused by a shot..."
"The Polymorphine hits have a ranged weapon Profile."

It most definitely was not caused by a shot, and I'm not sure where you're getting the ranged weapon profile, other than the AP?

Callidus has a shooting attack:
Neural Shredder: Range Template, Strength 8*, AP 1, Type Pistol.

(* Resolved against target's Leadership. A neural shredder cannot harm vehicles.) Not ST 4 and not AP 2.

...And a melee weapon: C'tan phase sword. Strength 4 Attacks 4.

The rule as written states D6 Strength 4 AP 2 hits. Now, if you want to argue that in spite of the attack not being caused by the Callidus' ranged weapon attack, that the victim should be allowed a cover save, I'm open to that argument, but I don't see how you can just assume it's a ranged weapon attack unless otherwise confirmed. The FAQ v1.1 doesn't say. But it does say:

Q: If a Callidus Assassin chooses a unit of vehicles as its target for its Polymorphine special rule what facing is hit? (p53) A: You can choose which facing is hit, but the Callidus Assassin must then be placed within 3" of the unit, and in the arc of the facing that was hit.

So: a neural shredder cannot harm vehicles. Polymorphine attacks *can* be made against vehicles. Therefore it stands to reason that the ranged weapon, i.e. the neural shredder is not being used for the Polymorphine special rule. Unless you want to say that the special rule attack is made with some unknown third weapon that has not been revealed, it's made with the C'tan phase sword. Therefore, a CC attack. Ergo, no cover save.

Nope, it doesn't have to be a "shot" to grant a cover save. note it's not a CC attack either. Cover saves cannot be taken in CC, yet this is not CC

Yeah, its a pretty big leap to assume that the attack comes from her melee just because it shares the same strength and ignores armor. In no way is it a CC attack.

parjlarsson wrote:

Kommissar Kel wrote:

Dok wrote:The are not defined as shots, they are just defined as hits. They don't take place in the shooting phase. Why would you say they would get a cover save?
A permissive ruleset lets you have a cover save if the conditions are appropriate for a cover save, but I don't see how it would.

you are correct about it being a permissive ruleset, you are wrong, however, about needing specific permission to get a cover save(also that the Polymorphine hits are not "shots"). You have permission to take cover saves against wounds so long as the conditions are met(The wound was caused by a shot that went past an obstacle covering any part of the model, or the unit is inside of area terrain), you are only denied Cover saves by those things that specifically deny cover saves(Death or Glory, dangerous terrain, Template weapons, CC attacks, etc).

The Polymorphine hits have a ranged weapon Profile

Please forgive me if this is considered a necro. It's the third thread I've posted in, is 3 months and 4 days old and did not give a warning when I hit "Submit".

"The wound was caused by a shot..."
"The Polymorphine hits have a ranged weapon Profile."

It most definitely was not caused by a shot, and I'm not sure where you're getting the ranged weapon profile, other than the AP?

Callidus has a shooting attack:
Neural Shredder: Range Template, Strength 8*, AP 1, Type Pistol.

(* Resolved against target's Leadership. A neural shredder cannot harm vehicles.) Not ST 4 and not AP 2.

...And a melee weapon: C'tan phase sword. Strength 4 Attacks 4.

The rule as written states D6 Strength 4 AP 2 hits. Now, if you want to argue that in spite of the attack not being caused by the Callidus' ranged weapon attack, that the victim should be allowed a cover save, I'm open to that argument, but I don't see how you can just assume it's a ranged weapon attack unless otherwise confirmed. The FAQ v1.1 doesn't say. But it does say:

Q: If a Callidus Assassin chooses a unit of vehicles as its target for its Polymorphine special rule what facing is hit? (p53) A: You can choose which facing is hit, but the Callidus Assassin must then be placed within 3" of the unit, and in the arc of the facing that was hit.

So: a neural shredder cannot harm vehicles. Polymorphine attacks *can* be made against vehicles. Therefore it stands to reason that the ranged weapon, i.e. the neural shredder is not being used for the Polymorphine special rule. Unless you want to say that the special rule attack is made with some unknown third weapon that has not been revealed, it's made with the C'tan phase sword. Therefore, a CC attack. Ergo, no cover save.

It has an AP, and it isn't stated to be caused by the sword so we can assume it's not as CC attacks don't have AP values. That is, unless you are throwing said CC weapon (much like Arjac), in which case it must be a shooting attack and you can take a Cover Save.

Or, we could cut out all the logical leaps of faith, and just look at what the rules as given say. Cover saves state they can be taken against wounds. The polymorphine causes wounds. Polymorphine doesn't state Cover Saves may not be taken, nor does it refer to other rules that state Cover Save may not be taken (such as stating it is a CC attack, or using the flame Template). Therefore Cover Saves may be taken, although obviously only area cover or wargear/special rule cover will apply as we can't determine a direction without the Assassin on the table.

Taking a section of a sentence completely out of context to apply as evidence that the Poster quoted is "wrong" is not going to win you friends or arguments.

The Quote:
"The wound was caused by a shot"

Was not in reference to the polymorphine attacks; nor was it even the full statement.

It was clarifying preceding statement(that is what these little parenthesis surrounding inserted sentences mean, also: do you see it in action right here?)

Claiming the Polymorphine hits to be CC attacks is incorrect: CC attacks do not have AP values.

The Polymorpghine hits are Polymorphine hits, they are neither shooting, nor CC; but they themselves do not deny Cover saves, and they have an AP value: thus when a unit that is a target of the Polymorphine hits, and it is standing in cover providing area terrain(or within the area of effect that grants them cover saves), the targeted unit gets a cover save.

The targeted unit would never get a Cover save for intervening terrain; mostly because the Callidus is not on table when the Hits are resolved.

Ok, some decent points. Now:

Can the Polymorphine attack be made against targets engaged in CC?

If yes - would you still maintain it's a shooting attack with Cover Saves? (Knowing that that would be the first time since ...2nd edition that you could shoot into a melee situation?)

If no - care to back up why that is?

Cheers.

As for friends, I have enough. But I do appreciate your honesty and the whole free and open debate thing. Carry on.

EDIT: I'd maintain that the strongest argument for a cover save is just to call it a "special" attack that's not clearly a CC or a ranged attack, and that when in doubt or when not specified, you get a cover save. I have no real basis or evidence to argue against that.

EDIT 2: I have no argument against jdjamesdean's point.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Chrysis wrote:Cover saves state they can be taken against wounds.

Ummm... no?

Cover saves state that they can be taken against shooting attacks.

Prove that Polymorphine is a shooting attack. There is nothing other than the fact that it has an AP value in favour of that argument. Yet it does not use the Callidus' ranged weapon, or obviously it would not be usable against vehicles and would be a template attack and would have a Strength 8* value, not ST 4. (* And be resolved against the target's Leadership.)

A. It's a special attack and the rule is ambiguous and there's no clear argument either way with regards to cover saves.

or

B. It's a CC attack and cover saves don't apply.

or

C. All you care about is that it has an AP value and that's enough for you to disregard everything else and resolve it with cover saves etc.

parjlarsson wrote:
Ummm... no?

Cover saves state that they can be taken against shooting attacks.

Citation needed.

Pg 21 says units in or behind cover receive a cover save. The only exception listed is in the Assault section as models locked in combat cannot claim a cover save against close combat attacks.

DarknessEternal wrote:

parjlarsson wrote:
Ummm... no?

Cover saves state that they can be taken against shooting attacks.

Citation needed.

Pg 21 says units in or behind cover receive a cover save. The only exception listed is in the Assault section as models locked in combat cannot claim a cover save against close combat attacks.

Citation needed that the Assault section is the exception.

Pg 21 is in the Shooting Phase. Nowhere in the "Polymorphine" special rule does it say anything about a shooting attack. It just says "takes hits" implying that there's no to-hit roll needed, as one would expect from a shooting attack done at enough distance to involve cover. In fact the hits happen in the Movement Phase.

To recap:

You either accept that this is a CC attack and no cover saves apply, or that this is some sort of "special" attack where there is no guidance on whether or not there is a cover save. To imply that it's a shooting attack when the unit's only shooting weapon cannot harm vehicles but is in fact the source of the opening attack that can (see the GK FAQ) be used against vehicles, is a bit disingenuous to say the least. You can't have it both ways here. I suppose you could make the claim that the assassin has another shooting weapon which can harm vehicles and does not appear on the model or in the unit specifications.

What I'm getting in this thread is that there's a lack of clarity from GW's designers, and a bunch of people who simply want to the Callidus be an overcosted vanity character with no real use and no place on a gameboard due to the GK army's perceived assorted bullcrap (not to mention the horrible accompanying fluff), in which case I sympathize. But let's not force the Callidus to be even worse than it already is - as it cannot assault per the Deep Strike rules, and should generally be easy meat in the opponent's next shooting phase.

Compare it to the Mawloc's ability which does give cover saves.

Non shooting attack, happens during the movement phase...

Yeah, the Mawloc's ability is the closest thing to this, and it allows coversaves as rigeld2 said. This whole business about the Callidus' only ranged weapon not being able to hurt vehicles is irrelevant. The S4 AP2 hits are caused by the ability, you don't need to search for some secret third weapon on her. Also of note: only shooting attacks have an AP value. Since this attack has an AP value, it can't be a CC attack and therefore must be resolved similar to shooting. Obviously this could have done with some clearer writing, saying something like 'distributed like shooting', but I think the AP value makes it fairly clear that it is not a CC attack.

Or the Spirit Leech DoM power, which is not a shooting power but allows cover saves

In general you receive cover sves against anything that does not explicitly deny them.

parjlarsson wrote:
Citation needed that the Assault section is the exception.

Pg. 39, Taking Saves.

"... the procedure for taking saves is the same as the one described for Shooting. Cover does not provide protection in close combat as it does against shooting. This means that models do not get cover saves against any wounds suffered in close combat, and for obvious reasons cannot go to ground."

In the shooting section, all saves are stated as being against shooting. Assault extends these saves to Assault as well, and then provides an exception to prohibit Cover Saves.

lledwey wrote:
Yeah, the Mawloc's ability is the closest thing to this, and it allows coversaves as rigeld2 said. This whole business about the Callidus' only ranged weapon not being able to hurt vehicles is irrelevant. The S4 AP2 hits are caused by the ability, you don't need to search for some secret third weapon on her. Also of note: only shooting attacks have an AP value. Since this attack has an AP value, it can't be a CC attack and therefore must be resolved similar to shooting. Obviously this could have done with some clearer writing, saying something like 'distributed like shooting', but I think the AP value makes it fairly clear that it is not a CC attack.

So... If only Shooting attacks have a AP value, then what do Power Weapons have? or Thunder Hammers have for that matter. Last I checked Thunder Hammers are AP 2 and Power Weapons have AP values ranging from AP 4 to AP 2. So Silly.

This is past it's expiry date... locking for necro -