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http://www.icv2.com/articles/news/20526.html

I haven't been keeping too close track of what WOTC is doing nowadays since they dumped me as a customer (D&D minis, SW Minis, SW saga RPG, D&D 3.5... all collected, all cancelled) but I'm somewhat surprised that two RPG products is all that they're coming out with for an entire quarter for their flagship line. I heard that they're pushing switching over to their DDI online service from making books but that seems like the penedulum is swinging waaay to far to the digital side. For those who still buy WOTC products, is this a good thing or a bad thing? I fondly recall (although my wallet doesn't) buying *every* core 3.0/3.5 book (except the nine swords one) and every forgotten realms release, resulting in a book purchase pretty much every month for me.

I heard there was a major overhaul in the staff recently so that may account for it.

Ahtman wrote:I heard there was a major overhaul in the staff recently so that may account for it.

Aren't they investing more into the "Essentials" line as well?

Cheesecat wrote:

Ahtman wrote:I heard there was a major overhaul in the staff recently so that may account for it.

Aren't they investing more into the "Essentials" line as well?

@Ahtman: I don't know if that's a chicken/egg situation. Did they let go all those notable staff members a month ago because they knew they weren't using them or are they not coming out with stuff because of a lack of staff. It definitely seems more like the former as their stuff is worked on many months in advance. I remember at the beginning of the year (before the layoffs), they cancelled a whole bunch of RPG products and moved a couple to their DDI service.

@cheesecat: I think the book is part of essentials as thats all they're coming out with period from now on (been doing some reading this afternoon about WOTC). The normal d&d 4e line is officially over with and ALL supplement books will be part of "essentials" from about the same time as the cancellations I mentioned above.

warboss wrote:@Ahtman: I don't know if that's a chicken/egg situation. Did they let go all those notable staff members a month ago because they knew they weren't using them or are they not coming out with stuff because of a lack of staff. It definitely seems more like the former as their stuff is worked on many months in advance. I remember at the beginning of the year (before the layoffs), they cancelled a whole bunch of RPG products and moved a couple to their DDI service.

It was within the last month or so it happened but I couldn't tell you why. The best answer I could get was that it was Hasbro being Hasbro.

Hasbro being Hasbro? <_<

Compare their RPG releases this year against their boardgame releases this year and . . . BEHOLD: the future of D&D!

Not too terribly surprising really and maybe they should focus on what even the gamers think they're good at.

In any case, check out the releases beyond 2011 as well -- they've got a quite a few things lined up compared to the July through December wasteland that is now . . . for those who want to buy 4E products, at least. It's not really the end of D&D as a tabletop RPG franchise just yet, although I felt a lot better saying that looking foward this time last year with the hope (and confusion, I admit) of Essentials upcoming.

I wasn't to worried until they announced a new set of Fortune Cards already. They figured out how to turn D&D into M:tG. I think we knew it was only a matter of time.

Yes. but the response to them (as well as the latest Gamma World) has been . . . tepid at best.

One wonders what the internal calculations are -- especially after managing a very successful productline in 3E for nearly a decade.

Any news on Ravenloft qua campaign setting? For me, that's what everything is riding on with WotC. If not, then -- ah well, more market share for Paizo and FFG.

Manchu wrote:Hasbro being Hasbro? <_<

Compare their RPG releases this year against their boardgame releases this year and . . . BEHOLD: the future of D&D!

Not too terribly surprising really and maybe they should focus on what even the gamers think they're good at.

In any case, check out the releases beyond 2011 as well -- they've got a quite a few things lined up compared to the July through December wasteland that is now . . . for those who want to buy 4E products, at least. It's not really the end of D&D as a tabletop RPG franchise just yet, although I felt a lot better saying that looking foward this time last year with the hope (and confusion, I admit) of Essentials upcoming.

I don't mind the boards games as a supplement to D&D as I consider them a gateway for people into the real thng... but I don't think its a good *replacement*. What's coming out after December that has you excited for the RPG line?

Has *me* excited? Nothing, honestly, as I've pretty well given up on 4E since Heroes of Shadow -- although this year's Neverwinter campaign setting has my attention. I'm an optimist, really. I'll be paging through both Heroes of the Feywild and the new Book of Vile Darkness *with hope* once they're on the shelves this winter.

Manchu wrote:Hasbro being Hasbro? <_<.

I'm not 100% sure what that meant either; I don't study Hasbro's policy and internal politics. I just assumed it was a dig at corporate culture.

Yeah. It's just a little too familiar on a site mostly dedicated to GW products, you know.

They canceled a few books as they felt they were blatant cash-grabs. (Really!) At least one was to be a class compendium and would bring together much of the material from various * Power books, the pre-Essentials PHBs, etc.

The DDI stuff is definitely getting the attention, although most DDI material is printed first, or at least part of the online Dragon magazine.

I wonder if, perhaps, the delays in various DDI tools has bitten them as DDI is "The way forward" so it's the priority over published books?

They've also been releasing a lot of tie-in board games and such.

I like 4th, but I have found the books to be a much drier read than 3rd. It's a mix of reasons: the fluff feels a lot more tacked on, the rules are much more concise with less 'new systems', etc.

Balance wrote:The DDI stuff is definitely getting the attention, although most DDI material is printed first, or at least part of the online Dragon magazine.

I wonder if, perhaps, the delays in various DDI tools has bitten them as DDI is "The way forward" so it's the priority over published books?

The Gencon when they first previewed the character builder and online game tool (which frankly looked about as complicated as some of the indie games you can download for $2-3 on xbox live) was my last one and I definitely remember the hype. I even still have my gleemax brain stress squeezie thingie! If they had that stuff online when they initially hinted it would be (there was never a firm date), I'd probably be playing 4e just so I could play with my old group. I don't like the 4e mechanics but the enticement of playing with the people that introduced me to my first real D&D campaign (one I ran for a few years eventually till moving) would have overcome that. Unfortunately, they seem to have taken a half step back or are simply treading water in that they got rid of their offline capabilities with DDI. My old group has now stopped playing D&D (not necessarily because of this but simply a slow drifting apart) but they did complain alot on the old mailing list I set up about the lack of being able to tweak stuff offline. I do see the online components being key to playing the game in the future but I simply don't think we're there just yet... 10 years, maybe... Same thing holds true for me with tabletop wargames; that Ex Illis game that fell flat on its face due to odious DRM for your minis (you had to register your figs online to play them!!) combined with "you're too dumb to know our rules so we're just going to automate them with an online only app (with a side effect of forcing you to register your minis to actually play!)" were certainly novel and futuristic... but those adjectives don't exclude them from being utterly stupid ideas also. I think WOTC has handled the digital push better than Ex Illis but that's not saying much.

Personally, my thought on their whole DDI initiative is that it's flawed because they're developing it as a "game" not as a "application."

There's an online article discussing some earlier failings that WotC had with their online MtG stuff that reinforces my thought. Basically, they should have engineered the Character Builder and other tools by looking at good web apps (Google Docs, for example). Instead they insist on using Silverlight which is great for spiffy transitions and re-using Microsoft development experience, but not great for other things. (And Silverlight is pretty cool as it powers Netflix streaming on many platforms, so I'm not anti-Silverlight...)

Still, they were very slow to release, have had to drop features, and there's a lot of bug reports. Better than the 3.0 character builder, I guess...

I remember an interview where they discussed the move from the old app to the current version and a major goal was compatibility with handheld devices like tablets... So they picked a technology that is unlikely to ever make it to the currently dominant tablet platform.

I haven't checked out the tabletop. There's a lot of tools to do that, and when I used them (five years ago) they were pretty crude.

My thought was that they pushed the idea that DDI was "the product" and Hasbro sees that product being half-assed and takes funding off books to focus on "the product."

Oh well. I'm not too concerned, really. D&D has suffered from over-production and survived, it'll survive a light year or two... in some form. My group could game for years on the books we have.

Balance wrote:Still, they were very slow to release, have had to drop features, and there's a lot of bug reports. Better than the 3.0 character builder, I guess...

**********

Oh well. I'm not too concerned, really. D&D has suffered from over-production and survived, it'll survive a light year or two... in some form. My group could game for years on the books we have.

I actually thought the 3.0 character builder was pretty good for its day as a completely free CD that came with your player's handbook. It wasn't updated "officially" later but fans inputed the newer stuff in if you knew where to look. As for the second part, totally agree. Plenty of players just decided to keep using 3.0/3.5/d20 OGL with and without Pathfinder.

It's my feeling that D'n'D lacks the hunger and drive of some other RPG companies, leading to a sort of creative drought. I was always a 4th edition optimist, but so far I can't say I'm too happy with the majority of my purchases. I loved the Underdark sourcebook, but when I got some other setting books they were a massive disappointment. Darksun is good, but the various PHB are still pushing the style of the first, which is not appealing to many gamers. I still think a large amount of the success of Pathfinder is not down to superior mechanics (because Pathfinder is mechanically flawed and clunky in many regards) but down to superior style (by this I mean flavour text, setting, and artwork). My friends are excited and enthused when reading Pathfinder sourcebooks, because the style of the books appeal to them. They snort with derision at 4th edition books because the style seems patronizing and OTT. As a GM, I find 4th much more attractive for it's simplicity and ease of use, but it's no good when your players can't take it seriously because every battle is a ridiculous light show in their heads.

I really like the look of the 4th edition books. It's a nice, clean layout, easy to find stuff, etc.

The "Lightshow" effect was big for me at first, but the GM for our group toned it down a lot. There's still a lot of magic and stuff, but then again this is D&D, where in most settings any reasonably-sized town is going to have a handful of wizards in it. We mainly toned down the other classes... My druid has some flashy effects, but is (setting-specific) keyed int some ancient not-magic power, so his effects can be very flashy (lightning storm) or not at all (most Beast form powers).

I totally dig it. My friends and I worked on a lot of alternate descriptions for powers when we played some 4th and some were really good (my personal fave was eldritch blast as a cunning-man pricking a voodoo doll).

However, I prefer not having to, and when you have players who lack imagination or think the book is telling them how to do it and they don't have a choice, it becomes an issue.
The layout and all other aspects of design are excellent, but the art or style or feel, whatever you want to call it, it's not as good as what pathfinder are putting out. If I could get pathfinder artwork and feel with 4th ed layout and design, that'd be my perfect game

Manchu wrote:Yes. but the response to them (as well as the latest Gamma World) has been . . . tepid at best.

One wonders what the internal calculations are -- especially after managing a very successful productline in 3E for nearly a decade.

Any news on Ravenloft qua campaign setting? For me, that's what everything is riding on with WotC. If not, then -- ah well, more market share for Paizo and FFG.

The Shadowfell appears to be the "new" Ravenloft. It has separate domains for powerful entities and the whole 9 yards. What it doesn't have is any details at all. They talk about the concept in the Shadowfell boxed set, but then don't give you *any* realms or personalities or anything. Don't really feel like converting years of Ravenloft background characters into 4th edition....

I wasn't happy when 4th edition pretty much turned D&D into a tactical table top miniatures game instead of a roleplaying game, but the following have all annoyed me a lot:
1) New and improved (NOT!!!) online character builder which still sucks.
2) Essentials. Yeah let's dumb down the game even more and make each character type even more identical.
3) Gamma World. As someone who has played Gamma World since 2nd edition this one just killed me. Some neat ideas, but even more dumbed down than Essentials and with just as many options for each character origin, ie. Little to none.
4) Heroes of Shadow. Delayed to be put out as a supposed full 4th edition hardback release instead of an essentials release. Hardback size, hardback price, crappy essentials content.
5) Stopping printing relatively useful and/or essentual books....Adventures Vault anyone??

As for everything going on line nothing like shooting themselves in the foot. Yeah it is nice make people pay you every month, but with good online content and decent books many of us would buy both. Some games don't happen near a Wifi hotspot... Even though I am a high end technology geek and professional I really hate any company that *requries* you to go online to access their products and/or services. Unless of course they are an online service like Facebook. People who push online only content forget the fact that not everyone is tech savvy and not every one wants to be. This is even funnier given how hardcore WotC went to quash any available for purchase and download versions of old TSR products that used to be readily available at numerous websites.

Skriker

I've been regularly playing 4th since it came out; usually two or three campaigns going simultaneously, but some of WotC's moves have mystified me. DDI has been pretty good, but other than that the online/software side of the game has mostly been a series of flops. The monster/encounter builder was cruddy the last time I tried to use it, the character builder went from actually a quite-usable form to a pretty crappy web-based version with substantially inferior functionality, and they've never gotten the damn virtual table off the ground.

That latter component was the shining star in the 4E concept, and promised to suck tons of lapsed gamers back in by giving them the easy ability to game again with their old gaming buddies who've grown up and scattered around the country or the world.

OTOH, if you're up for playing a game with a more abstract combat system, there's a bunch of folks now using Google +'s Hangout feature for online gaming. ConstantCon 2011 seems to be kicking butt and picking up steam.

Being a roleplayer/wargamer is unfortunately being in an abusive relationship, no matter how much GW/WOTC may abuse me or provide me with substandard product, I still love them. I can't help it. :(

I really wish they would add house-ruled feats and such back into the online character builder. That's the only thing that really irks me about it right now.

Other than that, I'm pretty happy with 4E. DDI has actually made me (and our group) buy less books than before though. It's much easier to budget and pay $15 a month (or ~$70 a year) for DDI and get all the content than buy the books.

pretre wrote:Being a roleplayer/wargamer is unfortunately being in an abusive relationship, no matter how much GW/WOTC may abuse me or provide me with substandard product, I still love them. I can't help it. :(

I really wish they would add house-ruled feats and such back into the online character builder. That's the only thing that really irks me about it right now.

Other than that, I'm pretty happy with 4E. DDI has actually made me (and our group) buy less books than before though. It's much easier to budget and pay $15 a month (or ~$70 a year) for DDI and get all the content than buy the books.

True, but if they ever discontinue that service with almost no notice (exactly like they did with downloadable PDFs), you'll have nothing to show for it. While there are plenty of upsides to using a digital service or other product with DRM but there also downsides. Also, what happens when the inevitable 5th edition D&D comes out (probably next year)? If you want to play 4th edition still, you won't be able to as they'll probably discontinue the 4e service in order to push 5e (similar to how 3e support evaporated in the physical product line months before 4e came out). I'm not saying the digital service isn't a good idea but simply that they shouldn't abandon customers seeking physical products. WOTC effectively broke off their relationship with me when they cancelled everything I bought from them (D&D 3.5, d&d minis, star wars saga RPG, star wars minis). Strangely, I was actually quite happy with the relationship (unlike with GW) and wouldn't have classified it as abusive.

warboss wrote:True, but if they ever discontinue that service with almost no notice (exactly like they did with downloadable PDFs), you'll have nothing to show for it.

/shrug
I imagine that if they discontinue it they'll start up something else. It's not like I actually use the thousands of dollars in books from previous editions that I have. I imagine I could sell them or something but don't. It really isn't any big deal if I don't have anything after an edition change. Saves me shelf space for the new edition.

While there are plenty of upsides to using a digital service or other product with DRM but there also downsides. Also, what happens when the inevitable 5th edition D&D comes out (probably next year)? If you want to play 4th edition still, you won't be able to as they'll probably discontinue the 4e service in order to push 5e (similar to how 3e support evaporated in the physical product line months before 4e came out).

I have the base books for 4th and probably 10-20 others. I just haven't been doing the compulsive 'buy each new release' that I did in 3.5, because I don't need to. I could still play 4th, if I wanted to. That being said, I don't usually sweat system too much. I still have all my 3.5 stuff and now a ton of 4E. If 5E comes out, I will probably play that too.

I'm not saying the digital service isn't a good idea but simply that they shouldn't abandon customers seeking physical products.

I doubt they will since monetizing digital products is a ways off.

WOTC effectively broke off their relationship with me when they cancelled everything I bought from them (D&D 3.5, d&d minis, star wars saga RPG, star wars minis).

Don't know much about the last two, but the first two were fine for me. D&D has always changed editions, that should be no surprise by now. They didn't break off the relationship, they just continued moving forward and you didn't. That's cool, there's plenty of 3.5 stuff left over and Pathfinder is going that way as well if you want to stay with that line. I never got D&D minis. Seemed like a silly idea to me. Random packs just don't do it for me.

Oh well, to each his own, I suppose.

I think I have everything I wanted for 4E now, so I'm not too fussed by this. I've got the core books, MM3 (which is great), and the campaign setting books for Eberron and Dark Sun. It'd have to be something pretty special to get me to buy another book, some sweet new campaign setting most likely, not just 'here's yet more character options.' Never really been into Neverwinter, so I doubt I'll pick that up. Only thing I've bought recently are the dungeon tiles. I love those things.

htj wrote:I think I have everything I wanted for 4E now, so I'm not too fussed by this. I've got the core books, MM3 (which is great), and the campaign setting books for Eberron and Dark Sun. It'd have to be something pretty special to get me to buy another book, some sweet new campaign setting most likely, not just 'here's yet more character options.' Never really been into Neverwinter, so I doubt I'll pick that up. Only thing I've bought recently are the dungeon tiles. I love those things.

The only thing that really fully bothered me was when they stopped supporting the local version of the Character Builder and replaced it with a tool that didn't even have all of the same functionality. That tool was the primary reason I had a DDI subscription in the first place. Tool became crap I stopped giving them money for DDI. Simple economics/business 101. I can still use the original character builder as long as I don't have to rebuild any of my machines that I have it installed on. So I'll enjoy it while it lasts.

I find myself in a tough position because I really don't like 4th edition very much, but members of my regular gaming group think it is awesome so I am stuck playing it. Everyone gets a voice in the group, so if some folks want to play it and it makes them happy I will suck it up and play it with them.

I do find it interesting that roleplayers and wargamers seem to be the most annoyed when new versions of their games come out and suddenly they feel the company has attacked them and their stuff is now useless. You never hear a person who plays Monopoly say, "Oh no a new version of Monopoly came out. We can't play our old version anymore. Milton Bradley Sucks!" As long as you have everything you used to play before the new version came out or the game stopped being produced, you can still play it just as well.

Skriker

Skriker wrote:I do find it interesting that roleplayers and wargamers seem to be the most annoyed when new versions of their games come out and suddenly they feel the company has attacked them and their stuff is now useless. You never hear a person who plays Monopoly say, "Oh no a new version of Monopoly came out. We can't play our old version anymore. Milton Bradley Sucks!" As long as you have everything you used to play before the new version came out or the game stopped being produced, you can still play it just as well.

lol too true!

To be fair, wargamers and roleplayers do have a tendency to be overly dramatic.

Skriker wrote:
I do find it interesting that roleplayers and wargamers seem to be the most annoyed when new versions of their games come out and suddenly they feel the company has attacked them and their stuff is now useless. You never hear a person who plays Monopoly say, "Oh no a new version of Monopoly came out. We can't play our old version anymore. Milton Bradley Sucks!" As long as you have everything you used to play before the new version came out or the game stopped being produced, you can still play it just as well.

Skriker

The point is that once a company stops supporting an edition (usually when they're coming out with a replacement), it gets much harder to recruit new people to those games due to decreased availability of the books and no advertising/prominent shelf space at the store. Sure, you can keep playing with your old group until they die or move off but you're not as likely to get new blood onto your table. Pathfinder has done something to change this (as well as the emergence of OSRIC) but those are responses to the original company abandoning players.

Also, your monopoly analogy isn't appropriate as the original monopoly is still available to buy/play where as WOTC doesn't print new copies of AD&D books. If you're talking about obvious limited edition and themed monopoly variants that are specifically sold as tie-in gimmicks (like spongebob or star wars), that's still an apples to oranges comparison. If WOTC came out with a thundercats one-off one-printing book that wasn't compatible with real D&D but used the logo and then didn't support it 10 years later, causing gamers to lament loudly.. that would be similar to your monopoly example. Also, last I checked, it's not possible to sink thousands of dollars into a monopoly game via expansions to the original set... people who "only" spend $20-40 don't complain as much because they simply don't have as much to lose.

Skriker wrote:I do find it interesting that roleplayers and wargamers seem to be the most annoyed when new versions of their games come out and suddenly they feel the company has attacked them and their stuff is now useless.

That is an interesting sentiment considering you opened a dead thread just to perpetuate edition wars.

Ahtman wrote:That is an interesting sentiment considering you opened a dead thread just to perpetuate edition wars.

Ok this really made me laugh. You keep moaning about me opening a dead thread and restarting edition wars, but that is all you seem capable of adding to the thread at this point...yeah Mr. Pot meet Mr. Kettle. At least I am taking an active part in the conversation instead of just complaining that the conversation is even happening.

Either way being able to acknowledge and laugh at the fact that gamers are some of the biggest complainers when a new ruleset comes out, invalidates the old versions and makes them useless in no way cancels out my dislike of 4th edition either. Get over it. You'll feel better. I don't dislike 4th edition because I think it somehow makes all my books from home lose all their contents and make them unusable. I dislike 4th edition because I dislike 4th edition. QED.

I guess we are just lucky as a group (that has grown and changed through the years) to be able to introduce people to new "old" versions of games and have them play them and enjoy them without difficulty and without any backing or support of a big game company. If you have what you need to play the game it just doesn't matter.

Skriker