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I'm trying for something balanced and competitive, without falling into the same molds as every other competitive list. Tell me what you think:

- Grey Seer, Talisman of Preservation, Ironcurse Icon, Dispel Scroll (315)

- Warlock Engineer, lvl2, Doomrocket (130)
- Chieftain, Battle Standard, halberd, Charmed Shield, Foul Pendant (107)

- 44 Clanrats, shields, musician, standard (210)
- 44 Clanrats, shields, musician, standard (210)
- 44 Slaves, musician (90)
- 44 Slaves, musician (90)
- 5 Giant Rats, packmaster (23)

- 6 Gutter Runners, Poisoned Attacks, slings (108)
- 6 Rat Ogres, 4 packmasters, Master-bred Rat Ogre (287)

- Warp Lightning Cannon
- Warp Lightning Cannon
- Hell-Pit Abomination, warpstone spikes (250)

Total: 2000
Fortitude: 5
Model Count: 204

The Seer goes in one unit of Clanrats, the Engineer and the BSB go in the other. Cannons where they'll cause damage and be sorta' safe, A-bomb on the soft flank, Rat Ogres on the other. Usually. I'm a little worried about whether or not I'm bringing enough bodies to the table.

Your clanrats are there to get into people's faces so I don't know if putting in a grey seer as your only character is the best thing to do. Maybe give him a smaller unit of Plague Monks or Censor Bearers instead?

My Clanrats are there to protect my characters. They're tough and cheap and Core. If the Clanrats are about to get mixed up with an army tough enough to crush the Seer before help can arrive, he'll probably leave the unit, since cannons and super-killy units aren't common together. If the army has cannons, I can probably avoid the super-killy units.

Beyond that, I feel like putting him with a handful of models would just make his 315pts seem all the tastier. I'd gladly spend a turn of shooting or magic to nab nearly 500pts and ex-off a lvl4 caster.

I see what you mean, though. I just can't think of any way to protect him without spending too many points, or without giving too many up.

Don't delude yourself. Clanrats may be cheap, but they are not tough. Putting characters in big blocks of clanrats is fine, but a better bunker would be Stormvermin with shields (for better protection against shooting, since they can't use the shields in CC). 30 of them (with better survivability than 44 CRs) with FC will cost just under what you are paying for rat ogres. I just can't bring myself to bring ROs. I just don't see how they are making up for their cost without bringing a whole horde of them. Also, that's a lot of packmasters...don't you only need one per every three? dropping them down to two gives you points for four more clanrats, which is better protection for your grey seer in this setup.

with 6 rat ogres you can have a maximum of 3 packmasters. 4 packmasters makes your current set-up illegal.

hulksmash1964 wrote:with 6 rat ogres you can have a maximum of 3 packmasters. 4 packmasters makes your current set-up illegal.

Not sure if you still can, but the 2 initial rat ogres you got 2 Pack masters, so he added 2 on making it 4.

ummm...wording in the current version of the skaven army book would suggest that you can have no more than 1 packmaster per every 2 rat ogres. so again, for 6 rat ogres the OP could only have a maximum of 3 packmasters.

It used to be FAQed...

Can anyone quote me on this?
I'm using an iPod to be on here...

From p.7 of version 1.4 of the Official Errata:

Q. Can I take a unit consisting of 2 Rat Ogres and 2 Packmasters
when I pick an army? (p104)
A. Yes.

@spyguyyoda: I'm not deluding myself. A clanrat isn't tough, but a big ol' block of them is. Clanrats have a 5+/6+ in CC. Stormvermin have WS4 and a 5+. Against almost everything, the Clanrats are more survivable.

6 Rat Ogres will bring 21 S5 attacks at I4 and 3 stomps to the table. 30 Stormvermin (less survivable than clanrats, when you consider unit size) bring...WS4 S4.

Also, 4 packmasters means that Ld5 and Stupid will hopefully not happen until after the initial charge.

You still don't need more than two packmasters. In CC they hide in the back rank. Unless they are master moulders they are not champions.

If you give SV shields, they have a 4+ against shooting. The shield will be useless in CC, so 5+ and no parry. CR will have 5+ 6++...against less than half of the units out there. Most things have a way of being at least str4. So both SV and CR will have 6+ armor saves...the thing is, WS4 means you will hit more often (since the majority of basic units are WS3), and because skaven usually hit first (except against elves, in which case the extra WS doesn't help much anyways), there are fewer models left to hit back. Also, even elves will be hitting them on 4s instead of 3s. WS4 is better than a 6+ parry IMHO. This is because you will take fewer saves. I leave the choice up to you, YMMV.

Extra packmasters are there for when, somehow, one out of every three arrows finds it's way into a Moulder breeder's greasy black heart, despite being surrounded by a wall of muscle, sinew, and rage.

Allow me to break this down:

- Stormvermin lose 16.7% less guys to shooting than Clanrats. Stormvermin cost 77% more than Clanrats. Clanrat units are thus more durable versus shooting.

- Stormvermin are hit 16.7% less against opponents that are WS4. Clanrats save 16.7% more of close-combat wounds than Stormvermin against everything. Again, Stormvermin cost 77% more than Clanrats. Clanrat units are more durable in close combat.

Also, the Step-Up rule means that, unless I kill enough guys that I've reduced the total unit size to less than two ranks, my casualties do zero to reduce the number of attacks back.

So there you have it. Stormvermin suck on the defense. They are, however, significantly better in the chopping department. But all I'm really looking for are character bunkers, and Slaves aren't exactly made for the task.

When you break it down that way, I don't understand why you don't think Slaves are acceptable.

Perhaps I misunderstood you, but you seem to have forgotten that SV are str 4, therefore they will do more wounds, meaning that they will not always lose the all-important combat res.

Anyways, SV are indeed significantly more expensive. If your purpose is to stand back and cast magic, then Clanrats could very well be the answer, but slaves will have the same ldr and have 40% more bodies than Clanrats; well worth the difference between 5+ and 6+ vs shooting. In combat I still stand by my SV. The difference between str 3 and 4 is even more significant than the difference in their ws.

...because, when Slave units die (and they will, no matter how many I cram in there), they blow up. I want to give my characters a chance to rally and survive. I've won games because my Grey Seer was able to escape his pursuers. And the WS3 is just enough that I don't hit those WS5 guys on 5+, which is kinda' nice. Really, though, it's that they don't explode.

And I didn't forget they were S4. I mentioned that above.

My plan is to engage my opponent with bodies and ranks and a standard after weakening them with warp lightning and magic, and then to send in the Rat Ogres or the A-bomb to do the actual killing in close-combat. Stormvermin are, once again, better at killing dudes than Clanrats. But they're still not that good at it. And they are too expensive. They're not terrible, mind. Just not nearly as good as other stuff.

So the consensus is: Clanrat bunker for the Seer may be iffy, and Rat Ogres aren't that great, and Stormvermin would be a nice addition.

Anything else, folks?

I use a plague priest on plague furnace with a unit of 28 plague monks and plague banner, really good unit