Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Hey I've noticed that rangers are getting A LOT of disfavour from all us craftworld eldar players out there, so I'd just like to point out that rangers, as well as pathfinders ALSO have shuriken pistols, as well as the long rifles so that widens your tactics with them to using the long rifles to keep things pinned down while sitting on a objective from long range (E.G large imperial guard squad halted due to pinning long enough for a cc unit to finish them off) or to bolster close range firepower by 20 s4 ap5 shots if standing still with pistols (but this is risky because the pistols only have a range of 12 so be careful if using this tactic) however considering their bs of 4 their odds should be better than using the rifles ALL the time, it just depends on using the right tool for the right job with these lads. Hope this has been useful for anyone out there.

pistols only ever fire 1 shot, I think you are remembering a different edition.

Personally, I think Rangers and Pathfinders are very useful. Effectively, they're a lot like Space Marine Scouts, with subtle differences. While Scouts are more All-Around versatile, Rangers are superior at shooting, and their rifles are superior to Scout rifles as well. Their Pistols are standard like the rest of the Eldar codex, but I think their biggest strength is getting in and out of difficult/dangerous terrain with ease, and getting to hard to reach objectives faster and more efficiently. From a tactical stand point, they can make a considerable difference in some games.

At least more so than Guardians...

Rurouni Benshin wrote:From a tactical stand point, they can make a considerable difference in some games.

At least more so than Guardians...

when i started my eldar force i was not interested in rangers/pathfinders. now i almost always field at least one squad of 5 pathfinders.

i've never fielded guardians. never have, never will ...

I HATE Pathfinders! My regular apponent always has 2 squads of 8-10 pointy eared longshots! With their freakish cover save and rending shots, those cowards ALWAYS get a DS Terminator squad thrown at them. Waste of points maybe, but if I don't do something about them I lose 4-7 troops a turn, on average.

If your opponent is spending 500 points on Pathfinders, you've already won.

Regular games are 2000 pts. So in reality a 1/4 spent on long range support isn't too shabby. Also consider that without DS I'm never gonna get to them in 4-5 turns. That's money well spent.

I had a fethin' Pathfinder shoot through the exhaust pipe on a Predator and it took it out of the game!
HATRED!

Rochronos wrote:Regular games are 2000 pts. So in reality a 1/4 spent on long range support isn't too shabby. Also consider that without DS I'm never gonna get to them in 4-5 turns. That's money well spent.

I had a fethin' Pathfinder shoot through the exhaust pipe on a Predator and it took it out of the game!
HATRED!

In a codex filled with viable long range support that is superior in nearly every way? Yes, it's terribly shabby. And how could it possibly take you 4-5 turns to get to them? Do you not use Rhinos?

I am not going to cast my lot with the pathfinders are terrible crowd, but to say spending 500 points on them isn't bad is a stretch. I can guarantee that there are better places he could spend those points.

Pathfinders with a doom and guide are the bane of terminators. 2/3 hit and 1/3 at AP2. Then with guide 2/9 more hit with 1/9 being AP2. That means 8 out of 9 pathfinders hit with 4 being at AP2. Then the doom kicks in meaning 3 with armor saves and 3 with invulnerable saves with a hope that one of those hits will be at AP1.

Sure you can rhino rush them or deep stike next to them but if you set it up correctly. You can ensure it is dead pathfinders followed by dead whatever is targeting them. If an opponent ignores them, good luck as that is 3+ kills on whatever they target!

(sorry if I have the APs mixed up but it really doesn't matter AP1 or 2 will do in almost any target.)

DAaddict wrote:Pathfinders with a doom and guide are the bane of terminators.

Know what's cheaper than that and does the same job? Fire Dragons in a Wave Serpent.

They also do other jobs.

Pathfinders are really good at doing what they are meant to do. Killing troops. However, they are an expensive alternative to the many other things in the codex that can do the same thing.
That being said, I love me some pathfinders and wouldn't play a game without a squad of at least 10.

DarknessEternal wrote:

DAaddict wrote:Pathfinders with a doom and guide are the bane of terminators.

Know what's cheaper than that and does the same job? Fire Dragons in a Wave Serpent.

They also do other jobs.

Except that fire dragons show up - kill - and die. Pathfinders don't unless they are in template range or CC plus pathfinders can sit on an objective.

DarknessEternal wrote:If your opponent is spending 500 points on Pathfinders, you've already won.

what is this about? 5 pathfinders for 120 or ten for 240, sitting back on your objective holding it, while laying down ap1 or 2 shots. whats not to love?


I guess if a player went with all pathfinders for troops then yes thats just a bad choice, but thats just bad army building. You can't trust an army of snipers to do it all.

Cypher's Sword wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:If your opponent is spending 500 points on Pathfinders, you've already won.

what is this about? 5 pathfinders for 120 or ten for 240, sitting back on your objective holding it, while laying down ap1 or 2 shots. whats not to love?


I guess if a player went with all pathfinders for troops then yes thats just a bad choice, but thats just bad army building. You can't trust an army of snipers to do it all.

Agreed, a unit of 10 pathfinders can be used successfully but in the meched up environment of 5th edition, snipers have been downgraded. But I will still say pathfinders with a farseer backup are devastating - as many Abaddon with termie retinues can attest.

I think that your are wasting the farseers ability by putting it with the pathfinders. It works much better with DA. I've had horrible luck with pathfinders. They are EXTREMELY exspensive for what they do. DA are alot more devastating than pathfinders will ever be, especially with a farseer.

Helvost wrote:I think that your are wasting the farseers ability by putting it with the pathfinders. It works much better with DA. I've had horrible luck with pathfinders. They are EXTREMELY exspensive for what they do. DA are alot more devastating than pathfinders will ever be, especially with a farseer.

If you play it right, then a 5 man quad of pathfinders can hold an objective all game, as well as picking off a few models per turn.

The real strenght with pathinders isnt long range support, but sick cover save. Standing in a forest they get 2+. And theyre troops. Of cource, they do have a decent output, and whith Doom they can rend the crap out of most things, and you can still use your farseer whit your DA, asuming they shoot at the same target. The reason you dont see them much is because of most armies being mech. I wouldent play footdar with out them

I used to run Pathfinders..when they were good...really good...Craftworld Eldar Book good, with the diesruption chart of doom. Now, they sit on a shelf.

Why?

Mech is the predominent build that they would have to face, and they are horrible against Mech. Also, they don't mesh well with Eldar's strongest build, Mechdar.

This means that the only decent place left for them is in a Foot list. Unfortunately for them, a Guardian Defender squad, with a Scatter Laser and Embolden Warlock only cost 125 points...just five points more than 5 Pathfinders. For those five points you get a weapon that can pump out 4 S6 shots a turn while moving, more bodies, and the ability to reroll failed morale checks. In most foot lists, such as Elfzilla, those Guardians are going to be a lot more attractive.

This is not a Ranger/Pathfinder problem, nor is it an Eldar problem. This is simply the state of all Sniper units in 5th ed. The vast majority of the time, you will find better places for points than sinking them into a sniper unit. The only possible exception is the Vindicare assassin; however, even he is easy enough to torrent down to make his use debatable, dispite how good he can be.

woodbok wrote:

Helvost wrote:I think that your are wasting the farseers ability by putting it with the pathfinders. It works much better with DA. I've had horrible luck with pathfinders. They are EXTREMELY exspensive for what they do. DA are alot more devastating than pathfinders will ever be, especially with a farseer.

If you play it right, then a 5 man quad of pathfinders can hold an objective all game, as well as picking off a few models per turn.

1 MM/HF speeder ruins their day, which is the problem. 10 grots can hold an objective all game, easy- as long as nothing comes for them...

woodbok wrote:
If you play it right, then a 5 man quad of pathfinders can hold an objective all game,

You don't get any extra points for holding a objective on any turn except the last.

DarknessEternal wrote:

woodbok wrote:
If you play it right, then a 5 man quad of pathfinders can hold an objective all game,

You don't get any extra points for holding a objective on any turn except the last.

Why would they be moving? Your wasting points when moving, just sit em on an objective.

Oh and1000 post!

Pathfinders can be a good trap unit. They are lethal enough esp if your opponent puts out high cost units like MCs or terminators. Most opponents do not want to have 2-4 AP2 wounds every turn so they will need to kill them off. Whether mech or foot, you can use this to your advantage by dropping the bomb on them and running your mech units to defend them. Now personnally I prefer the 10-man DA units rather than the minimum 5 DA in a waveserpent. So I am dropping some real anti-personnel firepower but if an opponent can only get one or two units to advance on a pathfinder, that should leave them in a position where you can unload on him.

DAaddict wrote:Most opponents do not want to have 2-4 AP2 wounds every turn

It takes 9 Pathfinders to average 2 AP 1-2 wounds.

Last game I used 2 units of rangers, 5 each. Wiped a carnifex and a half off the board. Yes, the genestealers went right for em and killed both, but they bought me some time. Against chaos, they popped a rhino and put some wounds on a demon prince. One squad died and the other lived. Won both games.

They are a good distraction, and if your opponent focuses on them it can divert fire from your key units. If not, they can pick off quite a bit.

DarknessEternal wrote:

DAaddict wrote:Most opponents do not want to have 2-4 AP2 wounds every turn

It takes 9 Pathfinders to average 2 AP 1-2 wounds.

I saw that and thought the exact same thing

I take DA or guardians anyday, in KP games they're a liability and in objective games you can do the good ole' turn 5 SMF onto objctives. I used to use them then realised they do not much, there are much better options for 240 points, like 2 fire prisms/nightspinners

Helvost wrote:I think that your are wasting the farseers ability by putting it with the pathfinders. It works much better with DA. I've had horrible luck with pathfinders. They are EXTREMELY exspensive for what they do. DA are alot more devastating than pathfinders will ever be, especially with a farseer.

Heres a healthy solution; take them both

Sit your pathfinders on the objective, put your DA mid-field in front of them (while trying to get them in range of something), if anybody comes for the pathfinders, either let them die to the enemy then counter attack to retake the point, or support them in the highly unlikely chance that they survive a round of combat against anything.

BTW 100 POSTS!

I love Rangers, and what I love even more are Pathfinders. I usually run squads of 8 Pathfinders. Thats just enough chance of getting a couple ap1 shots on the to hit. and then get rending on the wound roll.

I have popped open many a rhino that was still sitting on my opponents board edge, forcing the troops to walk and get widdled down.

And yes. people seem to forget they can move and shoot their pistols. Not the big firepower, but comes in handy.

DarknessEternal wrote:

DAaddict wrote:Most opponents do not want to have 2-4 AP2 wounds every turn

It takes 9 Pathfinders to average 2 AP 1-2 wounds.

If a target is worth killing, I doom it. So my 9 pathfinders hit 6 times - 3 being AP1 and will wound 75% of the time. They should not be shot at crap average units, they are there to take out high value targets like monstrous creatures, terminators etc. And I understand they are not the be all end all but they are no means useless OR super.

DarknessEternal wrote:

DAaddict wrote:Most opponents do not want to have 2-4 AP2 wounds every turn

It takes 9 Pathfinders to average 2 AP 1-2 wounds.

Unless you Doom your target. Then its 3.8703703703703 AP2 Shots (if you re-roll non Rend shots) with 10 Pathfinders. Thats (Almost) 4 Terminators. Or a fex. 'Cource that requiers you to waist a Doom, but its good against, you know inteleporting deafstars or MC's.

MrTau wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:

DAaddict wrote:Most opponents do not want to have 2-4 AP2 wounds every turn

It takes 9 Pathfinders to average 2 AP 1-2 wounds.

Unless you Doom your target. Then its 3.8703703703703 AP2 Shots (if you re-roll non Rend shots) with 10 Pathfinders. Thats (Almost) 4 Terminators. Or a fex. 'Cource that requiers you to waist a Doom, but its good against, you know inteleporting deafstars or MC's.

Your math is all wrong, assuming 10 pathfinders, 1/3 of hits will be AP 1, 3/4 of those will wound(after doom). of the remaining 1/3 of the 10 that hit, assuming you are going to be re-rolling non-rends from those you should achieve 1.0185 rends, and .925 saveable wounds. that results in a grand total of 2.6851 unsaveable wounds, and .925 savable(again assuming that termies are fired on that is 1.9444 dead termies).

I think you forgot to factor in the 5+ to hit= AP1, so no need to try for a rend there.

Also the total cost on that "death-star annoyance" is 320 points, while that is still about 1/2-2/3 the cost of your average Deathstar, it's net effect is very little.